Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
Well I'm pretty sure we'll never complete the argument here with much resolution but I will go ahead and tell my story about college:
So I graduated 6th in my class in high school. I wasn't able to take AP Calc II due to my only opportunity to take AP Calc 1 was my last semester of High school. There were a total of 8 AP classes offered in my high school until our last year of school when 5 students in my class convinced our upper level math teacher to take a college class to allow her to teach Calc II. Anyway, the way it was supposed to work out I could take Calc I in my last semester and still be Tied with the other 5 students in my grade for Valedictorian. Anyway not that big of a deal still because I was set to be one of 3 students to take AP spanish and that would have still tied me with the other 5 as they couldn't well anyway they got it worked around with the school so that they could take AP spanish still, by doing like a co-Spanish 3/AP class. Still not a big deal as being Valedictorian only got you a 1 time 500 dollar scholarship. So don't know why even telling this, except that I busted my ass through High school (Well not really, not like it was ever hard to get an A anyway.) Anyway I got a 31 on my final ACT which I took after having Calc (Which helped boost my math score a lot) so I was offered a full ride to Morehead State University. Which wasn't my school of choice, but I took it. Well upon completely the FAFSA my parents income was considered too high so they dropped my Scholarships by 5 grand. 2500 each semester because my parents estimated contribution was 5600 or so. That sad part is, my father had only had the job that put us above poverty level for about 2 years. My mother's salary has been a constant 15 grand since I was 2, and his was only around 18 grand until my sophomore year of high school. My mom didn't finish high school, and my father didn't finish technical school, quite possibly because my parents are severely ignorant. Every friend I have ever had that met my parents have no idea how I happened. So, anyway, I took out loans for both semesters. I wont lie my first semester I goofed off a lot, and didn't take it as seriously as I should (Basically treated it like my high school). I ended up getting a couple of As, 2 Bs, and 2 Cs. Not really so bad, especially considering, but still low enough to temporarily stop my scholarship. Which was no big deal I had the cash saved up. The next semester I slammed out all As in 6 courses and I also switched majors from chemistry to Psychology, because it turns out the only professor at Morehead that taught Chem 111 and 112 was also the only professor to never give above a C in his intro classes. Which I can understand kinda, he's perhaps the hardest teacher I've ever had, but for many students a C = a scholarship killer. Anyway I chose my second semester to tell my mother I was gay because I had started seeing someone. Well my mother didn't call me for about 2 weeks, and one day about a week before finals I got a call from my father telling me I wasn't welcome at home anymore. So anyway, moved in with the guy I was seeing, when I applied for the fafsa that year I didn't include my parents income as I was now technically independent. Well turns out the government does that for you :D I pleaded my case to the financial aid officers over the summer, was basically told that I would have to prove I hadn't received any help from my parents within the past year, and as I couldn't do that, I couldn't be independent. So unable to get enough money to cover school through loans because I had no credit I had to sit out an entire year. So I spent the year working at Cracker Barrel as a waiter, saved up quite a bit of money as I had no expenses, and I also started using credit cards to make any purchases and paid them off completely at the end of the month to build credit. My plan was just to go to school here in Virginia, but well relationship ended and I went back to KY. Thinking that I would get financial aid to cover school as it had been over a year since I had had so much a single word with my parents, and with all the money I had saved, I figured that I was in great shape. Well the financial aid officers basically couldn't find a way to prove that I was now independent, because apparently the government doesn't care that you got kicked out of your house for being gay. I was told my only hope at getting financial aid without having my parents tacked on was to wait until I was 24. Well I had a little over 10 grand saved, and couldn't wait that long. (I also had paid off my first loan by this point). So anyway what to say, I had to buy a ratty car that gave me epic trouble, Apparently my credit was only good enough for the very first student loan I got, and I ended up blowing everything I had to stay in school, including using credit cards to pay for some semesters, and one surprise 6000 dollar donation from an ex boyfriend who knew I couldn't afford to go to school another semester (Which was my last semester I was enrolled, and the story of that is a completely different story but probably the nicest thing anyone has ever done for me). Anyway only being able to work on the weekends to focus on my studies (I worked friday night 8 hours, and almost 30 hours on saturday and sunday combined), I basically tapped out. When I couldn't go back I got a second job, but of course the loan payments started pouring in, and the credit card bills etc. So I've been through everything, talked to a lot of different people. Lawyers, financial aid officers, been in front of the school board even. Nothing I have tried has worked. I'm 9 classes from graduation, and in the year I've been out tuition at this tiny public university has increased by almost 2 grand. Factoring in books it's a little over 1000 dollars to just take 1 class. It's going to cost around 10000 dollars for me to finish school. And well, this has all happened because one day Dick Nixon decided that people the age of 18 could screw the system by claiming independence and getting a free ride to college, so he decided to draw up the very federal law that has fucked me for the past 5 years basically. However I did find out that if my parents had allowed me to be a legally emancipated minor before the age of 18 that I would have been able to go to school for free EVEN IF MY GPA HAD DROPPED TO THE POINT OF STRAIGHT Ds THE GOVERNMENT WOULD STILL FLIT THE BILL FOR 4 YEARS! Or had they let my very poor grandparents legally adopt me before the age of 18 I could have gone to school for free. There are about 10 other ways you can get around it. I'm 9 classes away, since my first semester I've only had 2 grades of a B, calc 1 and 2 (Numbers get jumbled up in my head really badly and I take a lot of time to do problems to get the right answers my discrete mathematics teacher actually let me take the tests outside of the hour time limit but my calc teachers weren't having it, so mostly the Bs were attributed to my lack of actually finishing tests, but what I had done was right at least), and my gpa is a healthy 3.8 which is in the top 2 percentile at a university that barely finishes 30% of the students who enter, and I can't get a fucking scholarship or loan from the school or government because of the FAFSA? Fuck that. My parents barely clear 55,000 dollars a year anyway. Which is fine for them, but when you don't have parents who can cosign for your loans because they don't want you in their lives because you're gay, it really sucks. And I understand that if the law was different that people would abuse the hell out of it, but the worst part is there are so many kids I went to school with who partied all the fucking time, and didn't go to half their classes, and didn't care who still couldn't get kicked out because it was ok if their GPA sucked as long as it was a 2.0. FUCKING DUMB. And yes I've even gone as far as to talk to gay organizations and stuff, but pretty much all their scholarships are needs based as well. WTF is with all these needs based Scholarships these days and why do all of them go by the FAFSA? |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
Overall, reading your story I think the real monkey wrench was your relationship with your parents (and bureaucracy that I talked about as an inhibitor to the AD earlier, and how it relates to esclalating education costs, but that is another topic all together), which is very unfortunate and I hope they will come to their senses so your family can be healthy and happy. But that said, I'm not sure your circumstances could be described as normal and applied to the American Dream as a whole, even though it certainly affects you.
I'm glad to see you never gave up, and hope you still won't give up now. You are SO CLOSE! My advice would be to try and work out a way to finish on your own terms and screw the aid that seems to be blocking you mentally as well as financially. Transfer credits, finish at night or on-line and get what you can for you time, effort and suffering. Will it be exactly what you envisioned? No, but you will get something out of it even if its a new direction and new options open to you. |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
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As far as my family is concerned I was never close with them anyway. Honestly the last 4 years I was living at home (14-18) I spent the majority of my time playing games, hanging out online or reading books. I simply couldn't care less if I ever talk to them again, and mostly just glad I have good friends and continue to make them. |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
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If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism. That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola. Am I cynical? :lolz: I really did not want to get involved in this thread...but TheSlyMoogle has done a lot of the work for me so why not. Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity) Quote:
We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread. :lol: By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others. So while I'm all for individualism (I really am, I'm going into Psychology because I like helping people, I like that individual connection, and sociology is too theoretical and idealistic for me) and rooting on the people who do make an effort to get an education and succeed, I'm also empathetic to those who fall victim to depression, suicide, gang violence, drugs, prison, etc. Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod. |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
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It's quite common for most people, especially in this part of the US. Hell, until 1973 Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder. Basically due to our overly religious society mostly, and because it's just the next thing to hate. "Oh not cool to hate people of other races anymore? Fine... I'll hate someone else. Oh gay people, that seems hateable. Let's do that." That's an entirely different discussion. I will say that I am fortunate enough to have not run into many people in my lifetime that have viewed me in a negative way because of my sexual preference. At least, not at face, and really in the end societal tolerance through societal pressure is fine with me :D Hahaha. Also I wish everyone could have an iPod. Also that it was cool for everyone to just jam out all the time. Think the world would be a better place if there was more music. :D |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
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If anything, I'd say India is better at pursuing the American Dream than we are right now and China's continued assimilation of free market philosophies are rapidly improving their civil rights status, but again, everything is relative. Quote:
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It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others. Quote:
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"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand Quote:
By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy. Quote:
The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted. Quote:
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My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence. Pissing into the wind only gets you wet. |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
Good thought, 'concentrating on your own sphere of influence'.
I like the notion that I'm free to choose my success and failure, accepting that not everything in life is controllable. The 'love your neighbor' mindset is what elevates a more libertarian society above what Marxist thought can ever achieve. To regiment distribution of wealth, above one's freedom to choose to pursue wealth, is a recipe for disaster. The political phenomena that scratches the back of those educated(broad connotation) is a natural one. The way I see it, getting enough people tussed enough to push for a re-distribution of wealth is not only foolish(considering who would direct the change) but also counter-productive to a widespread charitable mindset. There's a woman who's really into urban gardening in detroit. She has built her garden through hard work, in one of the more dangerous blocks in the city. People don't touch her shit because she continually acts with generosity, being able to do so from her hard work. It's like some natural balance that dictates that no one can mess with the garden lady because that affects the entire community that otherwise wouldn't be recipient of her fresh tasty food. To me, this is an example of the American dream working despite a possible negative attitude which would have scoffed at the idea of creating an unprotected garden in such a dangerous milieu. Positive attitude and awareness of the self's ability to make change, even if it's within a small 'sphere of influence', is what defines America's successes. One can look at the bully-like attitude that has ravaged much of the developing world in order to procur wealth for the already wealthy, as prof mentioned, a rather large disparity(70% compared to 30%)....but that's a phenomena of people's ability to make choices, and while it's sick and disgusting(in its resulting disparity), I don't believe it's the defining character of America. Also, to remove that motivation is to risk everything worth standing for. I don't see things getting much better for the average bloke, I see the government skillfully and methodically increasing the control it has over one's ability to pursue potential wealth abundance... ie knowledge affording food that isn't GMO empty nutrition. I think the biggest issue as a nation(collective western nations) is the push to keep people sick enough to support a self created treatment industry. The purposeful ignorance of the average consumer as to what creates lifetime health and happiness has been a huge component in not only America's inability to keep pace with countries like India but it has completely undermined the future prospects of freedom within 'free' countries. The level of censoring and abuse that the government can inflict on the people is a result of passive negativity and the idea that change is impossible in an environment which cators to an elite wallstreet whose support for the American dream has been turned on its head by its own greed. The wealth disparity that the uber rich are in part creating is the same change that has weakened the nation as well as peoples' opinion of 'the dream'. There's always going to be greedy assholes, and subsequent poor. The big question is what you're going to do about it? Realistic change through real political upheaval(partisan elections don't count) is a quaint musing, hardly possible in the year 2010 onward. It amounts to the influence one has based on continual choice. grassroots grassroots. It can start in a single small community where people are influenced enough to have a charitable outlook, simply because of the positive attitude that America still allows for an individual. Being in Thailand, and facing severe penalties for jokingly saying something insulting about the king, is an example of the relative freedom we have. As much as our doors can now be legally busted down without court order, habeus corpus out the window, etc, there's still a level of choice that's unknown in much of the world. Count blessings not curses? sorry for not really adding much to the discussion...just my morning thought. |
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Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
I like you Prof...because at least you're fair. :p And I find that by putting my thoughts out here, I learn stuff (like your response and Seth's post). I'm pretty reactionary which is another reason why I wouldn't survive in law...but I digress.
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"Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV." I don't think people really want to become overpaid CEOs or to get on TV. I think they just want the basic stuff like what you want: a family, retirement, a beer. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of everyone, but neither can you. Quote:
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Ultimately, you and I are going to disagree forever unless my opinion changes (and I'm open to change....lol...I've changed on quite a few issues that I think even you and I have discussed during my tenure on these boards). I respect the people who do rise above their struggles, they are the examples that we as a society should live by. Quote:
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If this was a real pub I'd say let's put our differences aside and have a beer. This whole Internet thing is really throwing off the fun of a good argument, eh? |
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Most universities aren't all that diverse to begin with (the main bias being...it's full of smart college students). |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
Hey KG, I think I definitely see where you're coming from now, and I think we probably agree on more than we think we do. And for the record, I think this has been a great argument! :D
ahem sorry "Civil discussion" EDIT: Almost forgot some stats on India's economy... According to most recent stats India's poverty situation has been improving steadily for a long time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BPL_Data_GOI.png And for the last decade the rate of growth has been very high http://www.indexmundi.com/india/gdp_...owth_rate.html That's all the really hard India data I could find. Its much more promising, but certainly not ideal. |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
North American society is sort of structured to keep the class structure in place (with an erosion of the middle class). University education is so expensive that in most cases only well off kids go (unless you amass major debt). For example, in a sociology tutorial I was in, the TA said that working class kids don't go to university which I contested since I'm from a working class family. The TA then asked for anyone in the class to raise their hands if they paid any part of their tuition.
Only me and one other guy raised our hands in a class of about 25. The other guy was going to school through student loans making me the only person in the class working their way through school. Luckily I get help from my parents. In the States if you're not well off, God forbid you get sick because you will be ruined. And it's hard to chase the american dream from financial ruin. Wages are becoming less livable, and there aren't as many single income families any more. Government incentives are more for corporations and the rich than for he working class. Inflation isn't being matched by pay raises. North America is a place of opportunity in that we can pursue our destinies to the best of our abilities and enjoy a fairly democratic society (I say fairly because while democratic structures are in place, I feel out peoples are being less and less represented by our governments). But there are so many hurdles in place to keep normal people from getting rich that the 'American Dream' seems more like a carrot dangled in front of you to keep hope alive while the top wealthiest 1% of the population can enjoy their government tax incentives and rob the rest of the population blind (specifically your unregulated banking industry). The American Dream as it plays out for Johnny from Detroit. Johnny is born to two working parents who don't have the time to raise him right. He muddles through an underfunded and inadequate public schooling system, graduates and can't afford to be sent to university. Jobs are low in his area since all manufacturing jobs are now in other places so Johnny most likely has to work for minimum wage to support his college tuition augmented by student loans. Johnny graduates in debt and even if he does moderately well for himself will still probably be underpaid in whatever profession he pursues or at least won't make enough to support a family on a single income. So Johnny and his wife both have to work and don't have to properly raise John Jr. who muddles through an underfunded and inadequate public schooling system etc, etc, etc. P.S. Johnny lost his pension because of a failed banking industry :O |
Re: Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us
Don't worry, I realize I'm privileged and there's so many worse places I could live.
I just feel that it's getting harder and harder for people to even get what they need anymore let alone rise in the social ladder or whatever. I feel there are opportunities for success but those opportunities aren't equal and in fact in both our countries it is substantially more difficult for people not born into much to make much of themselves. This was not the case in the 50s/60s, etc but back then we had unions and most of our jobs were still here. In closing, it's becoming nearly impossible to reconcile any form of the American Dream with people born into poor families. |
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A couple of things to add to the discussion to lend perspective. Education rates in America: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educati..._United_States Its not as steep an upward curve as I'd loike to see, but we do see that education has become more accessible and not less. School funding: Quote:
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