Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

This is slight revisionist history, the dual shock was popular, but really became the industry standard with the PS2 and not the PSX.

Very few games required its use on the PSX.

And this is an add-on, no if, ands or buts about it.
a)One it may take up to 3 controllers for you to play all Move games (some use two Move controllers, some use a Move and a subcontroller)
b)You need ANOTHER add-on to get it to work with the system (the PSEye)
c)Unlike the Dualshock, this is coming 4 years into the console lifespan
d) After showing their games, Sony doesn't look to be serious about it. I'm sure e3 will offer up more support, but right now looks like they are strandling the line between putting this as an option in their normal games, and that worked out so well for the SixAxis.
e)Price as a barrier to entry. Yes, if you want a full Wii-Mote these days it costs you 80 bucks, or if you are smart enough you can get two games, and a full controller for 120 bucks. The Move as stated before has 3 different setups so you need 3 controllers plus a camera, plus the console, and unlike the Wii none of that comes standard.

Will the Move fail? Probably not
Is it a threat to Nintendo? If these early games are any indiction, no.
People seem to think that Nintendo lucked out with all their games, but as Sony is showing and as 3rd parties have shown for the last 3 years, putting motion controls in a game is easy, balancing it so that it is both enjoyable and doesn't hinder the experience is tough.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

So are you saying this new controler will be required by more games on Ps3?



Psx Launched at the end of 94, the Dual shock launched at the end of 97. (Or for US, mid 95 for Psx and mid 98 for Dual shock)... 3 years.. 4 years... same deal imo. I'm guessing at the time the DS had launched, Psx had more units sold then Ps3.

As for your other points... true, it requires more pieces of equipment, and more money.. but in the end, if someone likes both what the Ps3/360 offer and what the Wii offers, knowing that Sony offers the same gimmick (and more), might play against Nintendo's sales.

Who knows though.. it depends on how they advertize it, and if they get a good rip off for the Wii sports/fitness games.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

That's actually kind of the opposite of what I'm saying.

The PlayStation Move won't take off because it isn't required with games.

Let's say, do you think games like Uncharted 3, next Ratchet, Modnation will use Move as primary controls? Or do you think it will be given an option?

How do you not see how you prove my point?
The DualShock didn't become the standard until the PS2, and was lightly supported on the PSX, with rare games like Ape Escape taking full advantage of it.

The PlayStationMove is coming a year later, and is building itself into an even smaller niche because unlike the PSX controller to Dual Shock doesn't have the same layout so its not like you can make a game that uses the Move like a normal controller. And yes I know of SOCOM, but meant moving something like UC 2 or Killzone onto it.

This is the part where you and to an extent Typhoid lose me on, after 3 years, do people still think it is the controller that sells the system? Do you think, people will be like "Oh motion controls and its HD!" and move on?

Let's look at the facts
a)The PS3/Xbox 360 have ALWAYS offered more on paper than the Wii. Better graphics, better sound, better online interface, DVD/blu-ray support, chat, etc, etc

b) People are buying/playing a game that looks like this,

Do you really think fancy graphics is the key to gaining that market?

c) Sony Move and to a certain extent Project Natal still can not replicate everything Nintendo does. Neither will be able to mimick Wii Fit based on current technology.

D)For all the crap Nintendo does wrong, what is the best selling online enabled game of this generation?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

On a side note before I start... someone needs to delete whatever picture is stretching this thread out. It's hella annoying.

I think it will be given as an option, possibly. Just like the Analog stick was given as an option.


I guess that depends on your definition of lightly supported. Pretty much all the games that came out for Psx after 98 supported it in some sense. All the games that could benifit from different levels of movement speed. Was it a requirement? No. Was it supported? Yup.

The Dual Shock ended up being the standard for the Psx in general. I think it's more "revisionist history" to say the controler without the sticks remained the standard.. Analog sticks didn't just become Psx's standard, it became an industry standard. And judging off of sales, something else might be becoming the industry standard now.

But who knows... If you agree that the wii mote could become the industry standard, then you look at it more like the Psx Analog stick then I do. If you think it can't become the industry standard, then you're somewhat in my ballpark of understanding how Nintendo tried to avoid direct competition with MS and Sony by offering something different.

That's true.

No, I honestly don't... don't think that they'll just say it's HD and move on. But you can't deny that the gimmick of the motion controls is what makes the console popular, because as you're about to say:

And

So..

No, this generation motion controls are... apparently. Because it's definently not graphics, or hardware quality. And it also can't be game quality based off of scores.. things are more simple now... right?

That will be a harsh blow.

I don't know. And I don't care... I just know the average Joe who wants both what Wii offers and what Ps360 offers are going to be swayed more towards Ps360 opposed to buying two systems or just Wii after these controls come out...

But like I said in my last post, it depends on how they advertize it, and if they get a good rip off for the Wii sports/fitness games. I think if they can't minic at least the sports games, they will probably fail.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I deleted the massive one.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

And really, we don't need to go any further than this. It is an OPTION, and only an option, and that is what has and will always hold back peripherals.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Yup.. Just depends on if you consider it to be a controller and the emergence of a new industry standard or not.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Let me try and say this really, really slow.

It is a controller, no one will deny that, but it is also an add-on/peripheral, and even in best estimates, I see it selling under 20 million units over the lifetime.

It will NOT be a new industry standard, it won't even be the standard on the PS3, and that will the biggest problem with both this and Natal.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I'll disagree with you on that.

I mean, it's no secret that the PS3 and 360 are superior machines in every way to the Wii. And it's no secret that the Wii sells good to the target audience of kids, casual gamers and adults who don't like typical games.

However, I do think it will be the new standard.
Think about it from a company standpoint:

In adopting motion sensing add-ons to it's system, both Sony and Microsoft (Talking about Natal) are shanking Nintendo hardcore, because the one thing Nintendo had going for it that was different than the other systems - is now available on the two superior machines.

This will most likely force Nintendo to do something they haven't done in years - make a competative system technologically.

Because, I mean - what does Nintendo have technologically, that the other two don't, or won't within a year?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Under 20 million? Wow.. such a bold prediction on your part.

I don't think so either (not this generation anyway). But I do think it will hurt Wii's sales, for every point your ignored.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Nothing. It will have the price point advantage, and that's it. And as I pointed out before, according to scores, it has the worst games. So again, as I said before.. if someone wants both the full Ps360 experience, and the full Wii one, but can only afford to buy one or the other (or doesn't want to buy both).. This controller increases the odds that they'd go for the Ps360.

Don't get me wrong though, the games that are supported by the devices will need to be decent.. and I think Wii sports is the real trump card Nintendo has... so they need to be able to rip it off to some extent.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I just want to clarify since it seems difficult at times for people to see my opinion from any viewpoint but Nintendo's but I'm not debating the success of the PSEye/Natal over the Wii-mote, that won't happen.

I'm debating the stance of things that will hold the PSEye back from any mass market appeal, and just to re-state those points.

1) Complexion, in order to play a single PS Move game, you need at least one PS Move and one PS Eye, neither of which comes in the box.
2) You are already looking at 300 bucks for the console, and at least another 40 for the PS Eye, and the controller.
3) Multiple set-up, just looking at the launch games, some use single Move, some use 2, some use one and a subcontroller. In order to gain the full experience from every game, you need at least 3 controllers.
4) It won't feature many exclusive "hardcore" games, just look at SOCOM, one of their key games, and it features DualShock support, many people won't bother to try it.
5) It is coming 4 years into this console generation, hell it could turn into a 10 year cycle at this point, but I still think its too late to change the momentum.
6) It is coming the same time as the NATAL and much like PS3/360 they pretty much cannibalize the same marketshare.

So that's what I got so far, on the Sony fence/MS fence.

It hasn't been a secret for the past 3 1/2 years.
It won't be a secret for the next 3 1/2 years.

I'm sure someone will pull some random numbers out, and I won't disagree that the Wii doesn't sell to different audiences, but has there been proof yet that they don't like typical games. I mean how is Wii Sports/Resort any different than a complition of Sports games? How are Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros and Smash Bros multi million sellers? How does a game like RE 4, that you can already play on the console, able to move over a million copies?


I think people have put too much faith into Nintendo only selling on motion controls, and the value of graphics to your average consumer.

And quite frankly, what 3rd party support does Nintendo have to lose? What major franchise will convert Wii owners into PS3/360 lovers? I mean its not like they can brand anything Wii X or throw Mario into it.

At the end of the day, the balance board and I guess the Vitality Sensor. And I'm not saying that its a game changer just answering your question.



20 Million is being generous quite frankly. The way I see it, a typical console generation is about 5 years, this one is going to go a little longer, so we push it to 6-7 years.

By the time Natal/Move launch we are 4-5 years into this generation. So they have a span of about 2-3 years to sell. Now if we were to be VERY nice to both of them, and say they increase at a rate of a million sold per month (which would be a much faster adoption rate than the PS3 or the 360 achieved thus far), you are looking at a maximum of 36 million NATAL/Move products.

Which as it stands right now, would be more than the number of Ps3 sold worldwide, and about a 95% adoption rate on the 360.

You show me a peripheral that has done anywhere NEAR those numbers, and you can tell me if 20 milion is a bold prediction.


At this point the only thing that is going to hurt Wii sales is Nintendo itself. Wii sales will slow and that's natural, being in its 4th year, but I really don't see PS3/360 being much of a threat.

It reminds me when people said that once the PS3 came down in price, everyone would see what a joke Nintendo was. The PS3 came down in price and released a new model, and was able to outsell the Wii once, and about 30k units.

The 360 has bested it 4 times, 2 of them were the launch months.

Nintendo outside of the typical $50 dollar price drop, has really done nothing else to try and get new players. They still have options to bundle up Wii Sports Resort/WMP with the console, to drop a black or multi-colored Wii, or who knows maybe this mysteriously Wii HD.

The Wii has Nintendo, it always will have Nintendo.
Love them, hate them, nothing them. They are still hands down, the best developer of games in the world, I mean if you want, just check MetaCritic, no one releases the quantity and quality that they do.

And this has been the question that none of you have answered for quite some time, who was holding out on the HD experience and decided to settle on the Wii?

How many people do you know or do you think was holding out for Motion Controls but with HD graphics? How big of a market share do you expect that to be honestly?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

BaBs... Here's where I think you have things confused:

Me and Typhoid do not think that the content offered FOR the new motion controls will slow down Wii sales, we think that the whole package will.

"if someone wants both the full Ps360 experience, and the full Wii one, but can only afford to buy one or the other (or doesn't want to buy both).. This controller increases the odds that they'd go for the Ps360."-TheGame

Ask youself, what is the full Ps360 experience. What are the first things that pop out to you about those systems over Wii. And ask yourself what is the full Wii experience.. what pops out to you about Wii first that the Ps360 can't even try to emulate?

And I know you don't want to be objective about it, and discuss Wii's low scoring simpleton games.. But that is the proof that Wii's controls plays a bigger role then it's game quality.. So if you're not going to discuss that, then we're not going to have an honest debate about it. And yes Wii has Nintendo, and I've grown to respect Nintendo's ability to create good games.. but Gamecube also had Nintendo, so having Nintendo wasn't and isn't enough alone.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

And I'll ask you time and time and time and time again, why hasn't the Ps360 experience taken off this generation?

Has it ever dawned on people, that people don't care about all the flash? I think people hold out graphical abilities as this gaming crux, but it has done very little.

If nothing else, its word of mouth and hype, that has helped move games. Why MW 2 has been able to achieve over sales of over 10 million, why Halo and GTA have achieved great success.

And you can discuss the Wii's low scoring simpleton games, and I guarantee you like 90% of them are 3rd party games, who do you think are going to make games for the Natal and the Move?

Hell, the Ps3 is already lining up ports of Wii games!

Motion controls have worn off a long time ago, if there were not compelling experiences, people wouldn't continue to invest money into it. Do you not think there are dozens of Wii sports knock-off on the Wii? Deca Sports, Summer Sports, Beach Party, etc, etc

And they hardly make a dent, you think Sports Champion will make a difference? As it stands right now, it doesn't come with the system nor does it come with the controller. So on top of having to buy all the crap necessary you also need to buy a game for proof of concept!

I dont want this thing to be a horrible failure, but it will be.
The folks holding out hope that perhaps Nintendo got lucky with the Wii, that the only thing it has going for it in the past 3 years is motion controls is... I'm just gonna be nice here and say is friggin retard and haven't paid attention to anything that has happened in the last 3 years.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

They haven't taken off? Last I checked Ps3 has sold around 35 million units, and 360 has sold around 40 million... compared to Wii's 67 million. To put this in perspective... Gamecube Sold 21 million and Xbox sold 24 million... compared to Ps2's 142 million.

Ps3.. the worst selling home console of this Gen, has outsold N64 already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._game_consoles

Ps3 and X360 are FAR from failures. This is something I see Bond trying to tell you over and over.

And I don't get why you refuse to answer why you think Wii won. You keep going on the offensive and pointing out that the other two consoles are failures (which is factually incorrect). I mean seriously, what does Wii have that Gamecube, Xbox, Ps3, and 360 doesn't have?? Or what Ps2/Ps1 did have??