Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Yeah! Voting for a left wing candidate would be fucking stupid! I mean, can't you see how many amazing things that the right wingers did for us these last 8 years. Americans would be stupid to suggest radical change.

I think the best course of action is to maintain a conservative stance. Let's just not think about any drastic changes here. The status quo is what matters.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

I was asking an honest question. And my comments weren't against democrats in general, they were about ONE PERSON: Barak Obama. I believe my comments about Hillary and John Kerry even bordered on flattering. I simply asked what was it about his policies and platforms that people found so attractive. Germ didn't mention specific policies, but considering his love of Dennis "Beam Me Up" Kucinich, I can only guess I agree with zero of his political thinking, and thats ok.

Dyflon, don't deflect my question by throwing everything back on the Republicans/Conservatives. I was asking about issues, not personal bias' or poltical barbs. I honestly want to know what it is about Obama that they like so much. He is amazingly elusive in avoiding the subject of his poltical beliefs beyond those that can be wrapped up in almost religious rhetoric.

This is a huge issue that he will have to face in a general election. If he will not get specific, because McCain will be VERY specific in his ideas and policies, he'll have to rely on two things: Experience (he has none) and his continued "I Have a Dream" speeches, and they are already growing old, and will only go more stale as the Democrat primary continues, probably up to the convention.

Now Obama's voting record will also come up, and he is one of the most, if not THE most liberal Senators, and for this argument I won't say that's a bad thing, but its a set of ideals that the majority of the American people still don't identify with. The American idependent voter is not a liberal, and never has been, they just aren't conservative. The independent voter is what elected Bush, and it wasn't just the swiftboaters that did it. Kerry's comments about differing American policy to world opinion did as much, if not more, to sink his campaign.

My thoughts on this aren't about who I'd like to be President, they are about the realities of politics in this country. I'm not saying Obama doesn't have a chance because I don't want him to be President (and I don't), I'm saying it because once you start adding up all these points, it leads to him getting beaten in the general.

Hillary is your best shot.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Just to respond to this bit...I'd much rather have a president who might believe in UFOs (Kucinich) then one who makes asinine jokes about war. (McCain)


I feel like McCain should have been ripped for this, but nah...I guess we'll be in both Iraq and Iran until 2108.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

For the record that was an honest "thats ok", I wasn't being sarcastic. I don't expect everyone in the world to agree with my political opinion, and my disagreements with Kucinich have nothing really to do with his belief in aliens, its his belief in the U.S.S.A. Your political affiliations are yours, and I won't say they're bad even if I disagree with them. I'm trying to be better about that.

I can't listen to his joke as I'm at work and have no sound, but if anyone could make a joke based on war it would be McCain. The man spent 5 years being tortured in the Hanoi Hilton when he could have gone home, but he stayed because he refused to be treated differently than any other prisoner. That buys him a little room to breath when it comes to politically incorrect war jokes, IMO.

Amd why does everyone keep trying to DEFLECT THE ISSUE. I'm talking about Barak here, NOT McCAIN. McCain is not the answer to Barak's obvious political weaknesses. Once again, this isn't about preference, its about political realities.

As for remaining in these countries, its a definite regardless of who is president. We''re still in Korea, we're still in GERMANY and JAPAN for Christ's sakes. That doesn't make us imperialist, it makes us sensible. Japan, Korea and Germany all needed us there to help rebuild and maintain order after the end of those wars. It took years to rebuild Germany and DECADES to rebuild Japan. To think we'll just pull out of Iraq if Barak is elected is naive, and if he did pull us out it would be disastrous for reasons that should be obvious.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Strangler, I wasn't arguing with you per se so much as I was expressing my distaste that being left leaning is automatically a thing that can break the deal for you as a politician in the states even after the 8 years you all just went through.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

I don't think left leaning is something that can break you in the US. Barak is not left leaning, his voting record and stated beliefs would put him more sprinting left and digging a foxhole. A socialist by any other name is still a socialist.

Americans in general share strong opinions about a few issues:

1) Freedom - Any healthcare program that removes the ability of the common person to choose their own doctor, specialist, etc. will be shot down. Its too personal a choice. You can translate that to any social program aimed at the middle class. I believe that there should be a more comprehensive plan, but completely socializing it would be a disaster and most Americans realize this. Thats why the Clinton plan was utterly squashed in the 90's.

2) Sovereignty - In the end Americans do not care what France, England, Germany, Canada, etc. think about what America should do. We like to have a dialogue open, but in the end Americans believe that our leader's responsibility is to national interests, and not international interests. Diplomacy is going to be a HUGE weaknes for Barak

3) Safety - People are tired of Iraq, but most Americans realize we cannot leave anytime soon. Barak needs to come to that if he expects to win.

These are concerns that the average American has, IMO, and until Barak can move himself away from those ideas, involve consumer choice in a national healthcare plan, guarantee he will choose what is in America's best ineterests before those of the UN and come up with a reasionable plan for withdrawing from Iraq, he will not win any national election. At least thats how I see it.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Okay, heres the reality: People in the country want a change, and that is what Obama is promising. Most people dont read into it as much as you do Professor, nobody is going to know or care just how liberal he actually is.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Well we'll see in November, I guess. People wanted a change in 2004, too, and they still voted for Bush who won by one of the largest public vote margins (not electoral votes) in history.

By just saying "people want change" and will vote blindly to get it, you insult their intelligence. Even in 2006 the big swing towards the Democrats had more to due with centrist Dems running than the leftists winning a mandate. The voting public will want to know what kind of change they will be electing, and once that it revealed, Obama is in trouble if he doesn't move more towards the center.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

In 2004, the war was still in its early stages and not nearly as many people were opposed to it. Also, there are a lot of people out there that were worried about a presidential change in the middle of a war. Its a whole different story now. That and Kerry was a terrible candidate for presidency.

But yes, time will tell.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Also the year they introduced electronic voting machines.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

And don't forget that freemasons run the country and we never landed on the moon.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Maybe just the northern states.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Obama officially moved ahead of Clinton with his win in Virginia tonight.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Yep, and MSNBC says he wins D.C. All indications say he'll win Marlyland too. Should be another clean sweep and maybe this will start to sway the superdelegates his way as well. Hillary still has good opportunities in Texas, Ohio, and PA, but all this momentum may win it for Barack.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

He's speaking at my university right now... was going to go but have a midterm tomorrow.

Great guy, but still a socialist.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

I just put a Hillary sticker on my front door.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Oh Strangler. Try and belittle me if you must. It only strengthens my resolve.




also:

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

I stand corrected, Dyflon. Those platforms from Obama aren't vague at all. I am now completely comfortable that someone with almost no experience to run the the most powerful and influential nation in the world on four fucking paragraphs that have no detailed policies or plans to implement them.

Questions:

IRAQ: How will Barak pull us out of Iraq? What if the insurgency increases its rate of attacks and gets empowered by the announcement that we're leaving? Does he have a contingency plan? Who does he plan on working with in his compact? What are his plans in dealing with Iran's goring nuclear capabilties? Dos he view Iran as a possible threat? The dems haven't had to answer much about Iraq or terrorism in their debates so far, and they will be hard pressed on the subjects in the general election.

Healthcare: How will he better regulate healthcare companies? If they are regulated, what is the estimate cost of privately bought insurance once the entire structure is reformatted? Under the public plan, what choices do the American people have? Can I choose my own doctor? Will drugs be price fixed? If drug companies and health care innovators are guaranteed government money and there is no profit motive for innovation, who will create the innovations needed to save lives in the 21st century? How does he think the government can do a better job with Healthcare when every time it's tried its failed horribly (a legitimate question)? What about torte reform? Does he want to place a pain and suffering cap on lawsuits so that malpractice insurance can reach reasonable levels and that cost isn't passed on to the consumer?

Economy: The whole of his economics platform is a $500-$1000 tax break? Thats the most pathetic platform I've ever heard. What about repealing the estate tax that rips hard earned family wealth from people just because they died and in essence taxes the same money twice (my family lost my Grandmother's farm because of it. They had to take out a second mortgage to pay $100,000 in taxes). What about dropping the corporate tax to levels consistent with the rest of the world so that companies will stay or move into the US instead of leaving ot shipping jobs overseas? What about simplifying out tax system so regular people don't have to hire someone to dig through all the new laws and regulations? Will he also tighten tax law so that people who owe, pay, and don't hide in tax shelters (exactly why raising taxes on the rich does nothing to increase revenues)? How would he address the Real Estate situation? What would he do to promote US ownership businesses and slow down the pruchase of American companies by foreign investors?

Education: I agree that focusing on testing is a mistake in education, but the solution isn't throwing more money at it, its fixing the problems. State programs already fund failing schools beyond local tax means, and that has never stopped them from failing. The real problem is that the areas that need the most education place no value on it. Here's a microcosm of the problem: Glen Mills Schools - Its a publicly funded school for troubled youth, and it works. 98% of the students graduate and never commit a crime again. The school also offers FREE COLLEGE TUITION to any graduate who wants it. Less than 2% take them up on it. You would be better off taking to money and starting a public awareness program that illustrated the power of eduction to someones future.


I know what you're saying: People in general don't think this much about elections... but the New Media DOES. Pundits and reporters will be digging for secrets 24/7 and asking questions that the American people should be asking themselves. Barak will have to be more substantive.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Okay, first off I think I can speak for a lot of people, with my views on these questions. First off, who cares how we get out of Iraq. As long as we DO IT so American dollars and more importantly lives, stop being wasted for nothing. What if the insurgancy increases its rates of attack? Who cares! We'll be gone so it wont really matter. What if the country goes to complete hell after we leave? Who cares, it allready is anyways and us being there dosent seem to be helping.

And as for Nuclear threats, yadda yadda, we are the most powerful nation in the world and thats not going to change with Barack or anyone else in office. These people that are honestly worried about national security are out of their minds. Those people over there are crazy, dont get me wrong, but until they actually threaten us with a real threat, as in bringing their force to other countries or stateside (which will NEVER happen, this isnt WWIII and never will be), we have no business being over there, end of story. Whats really sad about the whole thing is that we stopped Saddam Hussein, who had nothing to do with 9/11, but we still cant find Bin Laden.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

It's not so much that they can't. They just aren't trying very hard.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

I do think your comments do speak for a lot of people, mainly the Democrat leftist base... but don't think that your opinions on these issues are shared by the majority of the country... not by a long shot.

There is no other candidate more hawkish on Iraq than McCain, and both Republicans and Independents support him in this. The nation, while not agreeing wth the way we fought the war for a long time, knows this is something we have to fix for the good of our safety and stability of the world. Pulling out is not an option without Iraq being stable.

If Obama runs of your Iraq platform, he loses by a massive amount of votes. It won't even be close. You have to see that as a reality.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Barring a meltdown of catastrophic proportions, Obama will win both the primary and the general election. He simply cannot be stopped at this point. I believe the polls which say that he has a better shot at beating McCain than Hillary does. Yes, Hillary is more experienced, but guess what? NONE of that matters. The only thing that really matters is how likable a person is. Studies show in a presidential election people vote for someone who is 1) Likable, 2) Trustworthy, 3) A strong leader, and 4) Someone who shares their values. The issues are secondary. The majority of people in this country aren't even capable of truly understanding what the issues are anyway. The other day I heard a guy on the radio said he had wanted to vote for Romney because he is a Mormon and "Mormons take care of people." I shit you not, he actually fucking said that.

Half of this country absolutely hates Hillary Clinton. She has zero chance of uniting this country or growing her base of support. Obama, OTOH, appeals to independents and some conservatives. His best feature is that he does not carry with him all the Clinton baggage.

Obama's speeches may be full of meaningless platitudes, but the truth is that's what works; It gets people emotionally involved which is key. No one gives a shit when you start throwing out numbers and tax percentages left and right.

The majority of people voting for Obama are doing so because he is black, and the majority of the people voting for Clinton are doing so because she is a woman. Not a single one of them would ever admit to this, but it's the truth. 90% of the blacks in Virginia didn't vote for Obama because they magically agree with his policies, they did so because "he's one of them." Even if he's not, really.

Re: Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama
 

Bush really screwed things up by invading Iraq. For the longest time I thought that we would have to stay in Iraq until their is stability in that region. But there isn't, and there probably won't be. Unless Iraq and the outlying countries because the United States of the Middle East via extreme force or takeover, the region will never be stable. I hate to say it but if the US keeps forcing their policy on other countries then we are no better than the Nazis. The comparison is a far stretch at this point, but for just 4 years I think it would be nice to see what happens to the rest of the world if the United States takes a step back. I don't think Iraq will be the next Vietnam. However, I support Obama's gradual withdrawal of troops from the region. If we slowly start to leave maybe they will start to get their stuff together. If they don't, then we can take it from there.