Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

After reading all of this again (great thread btw) I think the Wii (for me) will have to be looked from now on as a completely different experience in all from the PS3/360. When I'm sitting here at night or whenever and thinking of what to play, the Wii never comes to mind. I think to myself "hmm which do I want to play, 360 or PS3". I say that the Wii is separate from the PS3/360 because it's on its own... it's doing its own thing in terms of what it offers. Like I said in my first post, I like the Wii for the first party titles, I was all over Twilight Princess day 1, same with Galaxy, and same with Brawl but that's as far as it goes for me, aside from Wii Sports and Links Crossbow Training those are the only 3 games I own for it.

I'm a fairly "typical gamer" these days, I love to play a game where I have a gun in my hand and I like to shoot anything that stands in my path and that is exactly the offering that the PS3/360 gives me in terms of solid experiences. I can play those 2 consoles all the time because they have the games I crave now but when Nintendo puts out another first party game that I have interest in then I'll drop the PS3/360 like a bad habit for a little while (ask BaB when SSBB came out... he got tired of ME asking to play).

These days people are just so used to comparing all 3 consoles because they used to be on the same level in terms of graphics, games, and hardware in general. So basically, I think the Wii vs. PS3/360 comparisons aren't even necessary these days because the Wii has nothing in common with the other 2 consoles in any concerns whether it be key demographic, hardware, software or anything. The consoles/companies are taking completely separate paths and it's just time to accept that I guess, because I don't see Nintendo turning away from the success they've had and are still having when it comes to the next generation of consoles so the gaming world just needs to get used to a new more "divided" way of gaming.

Edit: broke it up because BaB says people don't read paragraphs! haha

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

So your main problem with the Wii is the graphics (help with grammar here :))? If the Wii was as powerful as a 360, it would've been more immersing for you, and you'd be closer to the art form you wanted?

Or is the problem the games? Nintendo have always been about Mario, Zelda, Metroid - you'd never get a Mass Effect from them. And that brings us back to the original question - why doesn't the Wii get games like Mass Effect? The controller? The graphics? The target audience?

On another note, you say that Nintendo moved the industry back. I don't think they moved it back, because the industry, for reasons we can discuss, haven't really agreed with Nintendo, and they don't have much support. Nintendo have created a different platform, where currently only themselves and a few others are playing on. You still have the other 2 consoles for your taste.

Which is why I wanted a 360. I love playing the kiddy/fun games, but I too, sometimes want some epic storytelling and action (I looooved BioShock).

Nintendo didn't do anything wrong industry-wise to affect your dreams. The industry is still going the way of interactive-movie. It's just that Nintendo isn't (or at least didn't, this generation).

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

BABsy, the way Nintendo has turned their backs on the hardcore gamer to ME is by marketing their systems to the new, casual gamer. 3rd parties will then release stuff like carnival games on the system, but not their flagship shooter. And who can blame them? That's the target audience.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I wish you would have posted this earlier and saved me a half a day of writing :)

It gets right to my point.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

This is a fun thread, and I will leave it alone to see where it goes, but since this was specifically titled for me.

I am going to agree and disagree with you.
Nintendo has hardly got any flagship titles or atleast exclusively. I mean a port of RE 4, Manhunt 2 (it was higher profile before), Monster Hunter 3, and stuff like that.
But I don't believe that is Nintendo's fault per say. I know developers are gonna try and cater to an audience that buys the console, but they should also look to fill the HUGE void left by Nintendo games.

Graphically, the Wii can not compete but you mention shooters.
Red Steel was an exclusive shooter for the Wii that sold really well, but it really did nothing else.
Medal of Honor Heroes 2 was a PSP port, and frankly, it is one of those games that challenges the way FPSes are played in my opinion. I will get this out of the way. The game is not great. As a package, it can hardly compete with the second tier FPSes.
But the ideas behind the controls are rock solid, and if they took the mechanics and applied it to a ground up Wii FPS. I think you would be looking at a game that changes the very dynamic of the genre.
I realize it is a hyperbole and what have you. But MoH H 2 does stuff so well with the controller that it immerses you in new and interesting ways. Take these 3 weapons for example, the sniper rifle, the bazooka and the shotgun.
In some FPses, they are differientated by the way you hold them or how much room they take up on the screen, but in Medal of Honor they are given I guess different weights.
The sniper rifle is controlled by twisting the Wii-mote clockwise or counterclockwise like spinning a dial to zoom in/zoom out. It's a small touch but makes you feel like you are in a bit more control.
The bazooka has you lifting the controller over your shoulder (you can get away with just pointing the wii mote away from the screen but eh) and then using the analog stick to aim. When you fire, you can hear the bazooka travel from your hand (wii mote speakers) to the TV screen. Again an element that no other FPS can really offer.
And then the shotgun or a specific shotgun anyhow. This is like one of those movie shotguns you always see people with that they pump after every shot. It is the same deal here. You fire with the B trigger and aiming with wii-mote and you reload after every shot with the nunchuk by doing a pumping action.
These are standard weapons in most FPSes and they are made to feel unique by the way you are able to control them. This is the type of change the Wii offers IMO. And it can be a blessing for the hardcore if developers tried.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I'd argue that Nintendo, with the release of the Wii, has moved the industry horizontally as opposed to its previous vertical climb. And I think because now Nintendo is moving on this horizontal path it has the potential to begin climbing up once again or to climb down. Climbing down, of course, being very dangerous in my view.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I'd argue that the Wiimote by itself was a bigger step for gaming than an evolution of graphical prowess ever will be. How you play a game is equally important to what you're playing. The issue is how they're marketing what to do with that technology. Most of the time it's used as more of a gimmick instead of using it intelligently like Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, and The Godfather. Even Zelda could have used it better in a few instances.

In the end, current developers (and many consumers such as yourself) view them as separate issues. I think that the bottom line should be how to make games more immersive and entertaining. I think the payoff is just more obvious with glitzy graphics.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

It was a big step for gaming...because it introduced a bunch of new gamers to adopt a different way to play. I dont think motion controllers should nor will become the standard in gaming...but the demand was obviously there and Nintendo was able to find a way to meet it. And for that, they're seeing the rewards ($$$).

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

If that is the case. Why did Sony release the Sixaxis? And rumors of Microsoft coming out with their own motion controller for the 360?

I'm just curious, I know Strangler owns one.

And Bond has played one like once or twice.

But do you own or played the Wii?

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I see your point, but I have to agree with Stu here, in that I don't see videogames going the way of motion control. Which is why I believe Nintendo's move to motion control with the Wii is a horizontal move for the videogame industry. Now, maybe if Nintendo continues to evolve motion control with its next console (which I don't see happening), then perhaps we could start talking about vertical movement again for Nintendo. But what I think is more likely is for Nintendo to come out with a new "gimmick" for its next console.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Nintendo will have made such a crapload of money by then, that they're going to compete graphically again. And of course they have a hugely improved motion controller. The best of two worlds.

Of course Sony and Microsoft will offer us the same thing, so it will be a very interesting generation.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Don't own one. I've played it about a half dozen times.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Since this thread seems to be dying down :(

I am curious to see what those who think the Wii was a bad move, think about Sony and Microsoft (rumored) move to motion controllers as well.

Is it just a ploy to take away marketshare/mindshare from Nintendo or do these companies see motions as a legit future?

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Ugh, Sony and Microsoft don't need to touch motion controllers. Sony implemented it alright I guess but it's only good on a smaller scale like in games like Army of Two where you flick the controller to reload, or in Ratchet where you guide yourself in the air. But they have proven that it doesn't work in a larger role, like in Lair.

Microsoft just needs to not worry about it period. They are too late to the Motion sensor party IMO. They're coming into year 3 of the 360's life and they just need to stick with what they started with.

Edit: I totally read what you said wrong BaB... oops! :D

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

There's definitely a place for motion controls in gaming, I just don't think it will ever be the only option. I would never want to have to play a game like Madden with motion controls...if I want to move my arm in a throwing motion, I would much prefer to be throwing an actual football.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

The Wiimote is just a superior adaptation of what has been available in arcades for a long long time. I don't think motion control will ever become the standard for gaming until we can completely emerge ourselves in a virtual world.

As it stands, the Wiimote has the edge over a standard controller for a couple of games. It breaks even on a couple more. And for the rest, I think the majority of the world would rather have a good old fashioned controller.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I always thought the appeal of the Wiimote was that it bought that arcade type of experience home. And in essence, arcadey (read somewhat easy to pick up and play games) have truly shined on the Wii.

As for the Wiimote and its benefits/disadvantages over normal controllers. Yeah, I can see it, but as it has been for a while it is also about preferences as well. I mean even "traditional" controls can be a bit iffy. I like the 360 controller but never really liked the Dual Shock design.

I don't think it will ever be the only option. Hell, it isn't the only option for the Wii.
As for the football example, I guess it really depends on how the motions work. I thought Madden Wii was fine but still not a football game fan.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I guess for me, the arcade became less enjoyable with each new generation of consoles. There was very little reason to go pay for games that I could play at home, unless those games were mutliplayer rail shooters or the classic fighting games like Street Fighter 3 or Marvel Vs. Capcom.

What the arcade lacked in depth, it made up for in multiplayer and gimmicks, like rail shooters which are fun for about 30 minutes until you realize how boring they are, and racing games where you get to use a steering wheel and a pretend clutch, which is surprisingly just as satisfying as a controller if not slightly less satisfying because it does not respond in a manner realistic to how driving actually is.

The shift to motion control adds a layer of interaction that will indeed be revolutionary for a select few games. But, to what degree can you truly interact and at what point does this interaction compromise game design or depth?

Sure, you can swing your Wiimote to simulate hitting a baseball bat, or you can make the gesture of rolling a bowling ball, or you can flick your wrist. But, if you break down the motions you can do with the Wiimote, there's only a few. Flick your wrist, twist it, throw it, shake it....And making the motion of rolling a bowling ball or hitting a baseball bat with your Wiimote is never going to fill the void of not holding a real baseball bat or rolling a bowling ball.

For sports games or party games like Wario Ware, the Wiimote has potential ad infinitum. I even think that for games like Grand Theft Auto the Wiimote could be put to good use. But the Wii is just too underpowered to pick up titles like Grand Theft Auto. And with three platforms (PC, Xbox360, PS3), why would Rockstar go out of their way to develop a modified version of Grand Theft Auto to work on the Wii?

But still, for me, and this is strictly person preference, I would prefer a standard controller over motion control for platformers (Mario Galaxy), first person shooters (Metroid), fighting games (Super Smash Bros.), Adventure games (Zelda), and for Football, Soccer and Basketball sports titles. RPGs have very low appeal to me so I can't comment, and Strategy games belong on the PC where you can use hotkeys and bindings.

The Wii will never ever ever EVER further the First Person Shooter genre. Already, that is one genre that the Wii has made zero impact on. The Wii will probably leave very little impact on the racing genre, especially for serious racing game fans. The Will will not leave any impact on the fighting genre, Super Smash Bros. remains a Nintendo exclusive. I doubt the Wii will impact platfomers very much or adventure games.

The Wii will innovate sport and party titles. And that innovation is done. You can't really further it. Motion on a home console has been done, so where do we go from here?

How innovative can you get? Twist your Wiimote? Flick it? Repeat and make a sequel? Does there need to be a Wii Sports sequel? The one where you do the same stuff from the first one only slightly different?

I mean can't you see how the Wii is kind of gimmicky? It's going to leave very little impact on all the genres that people tend to gush over.

Meanwhile, everyone else is going to remember their Halo 3, or Grand Theft Auto 4, or whatever immersive, graphically orgasmic, in-depth game that rocked their single player world for 40+ hours.

I don't think there's very much innovation behind the Wii at all. For most games, it's just another way to do things, only with less graphical horsepower, and more physical work. And forget third party titles. But, obviously the Wii's appeal has worked because people are pooring in the money. But I can't call the Wii revolutionary, not yet. Because, personally, I could see Sony and Microsoft doing something similar to the Sixaxis for future consoles, but I can't see them abandoning the controller.

The Wii is an awesome horizontal step.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Wow that was well written, detailed and I almost feel bad replying. I don't really disagree with you on most points.
But on the same hand, think would be a disservice not to reply. And this thread is on its last leg as well. :p

I will start by saying I have never been a huge arcade person. To me arcades have always been simple games such as Bust a Move or Buck Hunter and fighting games. Hell I've never really seen co-op machines like Gauntlet or Ninja Turtles. But I do think the arcade experience has some merit in the home console area and I think that is what really killed off arcades is when home consoles began to do the same thing sometimes better.

The Wiimote offers that sort of visceral feeling that you get from the arcade, and it is a fun experience. It is weird to think about but it is nice to stand up and play sometimes.

I think as long as it changes even a few genres, it has done its job. And I really don't feel that it would hurt game design. Unless, I'm missing something why would motions limit your imagination? If anything else, it should open up ideas. I mean do you want to introduce a new concept in the final half of the game that uses all these funky button combinations or can you introduce it with a familar motion people know?

Ok a few motions can go a long way.
The same way 2 buttons or whatever takes you far.
Look at something like Wario Ware that takes a core 12 motions (think being a bit generous but w/e) and gives raise to about 200 different types of games. The same thing could be done with any type of game.
The motion for throwing a bowling ball? Use it in an FPS as a way to throw a smoke grenade along the floor.
Swinging a baseball bat? A variety of melee weapons in a sandbox game?

I don't think anyone sees the Wii as filling a void from its real life counterparts. But why is the Wii the only console held to this standard? Should Guitar Hero fill a void of playing an actual guitar? Should Madden make me feel like the next NFL superstar?
We play games (or making an assumption here) to escape into a different realm from our own. It is why sci-fi games are so popular or why so few FPSes are even set in the current day.

The Wii is too underpowered to get anything but a watered down GTA IV. That is true, but the Wii has a big enough userbase and different enough concept that Rockstar could look into something along the lines of the GTA Stories on PSP for the Wii.
I mean honestly, it would make more sense to waste efforts on a Wii version than a PSP version.
And it doesn't have to be just GTA. Scarface. Godfather and Bully have all shown the Wii works well for sandbox games. Now someone just needs to step up to the plate and create an exclusive one for the Wii.

And apparently Nintendo doesn't disagree with you much on this. Mario and SMash for the most part feature relatively little motion controls. Actually Smash has none. Metroid I don't believe is hurt by motions and I really think it is kind of lazy with some but a fun game. Zelda was a launch title ported from the Cube. I would want to see a ground up Wii effort before I spoke.

But that isn't to say there isn't room in those genres for motions. Just be smart about it. I am not saying EVERYTHING needs to be motion controlled, but the stuff that makes sense.

I've already pointed out that I feel the Wii has already had an impact on the FPS genre. If it goes further than the Wii isn't up to me. But in terms of controls/interactivity the bar has been raised.

I doubt it will work for serious racers, but for arcadey racers. The wiimote is a fun thing. Try excitetruck may not be the prettiest girl at the dance, but she will show you a good time.

Agree with fighting. But to be fair, that genre either needs to change or it will only appeal to a smaller and smaller audience IMO. That is however a subject for another day.

I do hope that Galaxy has an influence on other platformers. Hell I am begging for the flood of half assed Galaxy games. I mean if they are half the game Galaxy was would till be pretty damn good.

I don't want to call you on this, but it has been a trend for this entire post. Motions aren't the only thing the Wiimote does different. Pointer functionality while in limited use has also been very important. Just look how well received Pro Evolution Soccer is for the Wii or why FPSes are said to control better with the Wiimote or aiming in general. Then there is the speaker, which I admit is a nice little gimmick, but it can add to the game experience as well.
I've used the bazooka example in Medal of Honor Heroes before and well the core idea is like surround sound it makes more sense for the sound to travel from your ear than behind you.
Also something like No More Heroes with the pre-fight trash talking phone call is cool.

I can see how the Wii was a gimmick, but I think and this is my personal opinion. The gimmick has proven itself to be more than just that.
And as I mentioned before, if it will leave very little impact why are Sony and Microsoft in the market for motion?

Here's the thing. Will GTA IV and Halo 3 be remember for being truly terrific games (I will argue one isn't but that is another story) or because they are Halo and GTA? :p
And I will state this as I have before, if there is one game that will be remembered from this generation. 10... 20 years down the road. It will be Wii Sports. It single handedly changed the face of the industry.

Yes, sometimes it is another way to do something but to some people that adds something.
If it is piss poor motions like TMNT where you just shake to do combat that is just retarded.
Or they can make a bit of sense and add something like actually picking up and tossing back a grenade in CoD 3 or whichever was on the Wii. Or snapping someone's neck by twisting the controller in Godfather or by simply making a move such as Link's spink attack and Mario's spin more accessible.

And in that regards Nintendo would be right.
The Wii has motion controls and a weird shape but it isn't that far off from a normal controller. The biggest issue is it really doesn't have a second analog stick. But other than that it has potential.

Then this is a bad bad can of worms.
What the hell are the Ps3 and 360?

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Just like in the past........Nintendo Invents the D-Pad, its copied. Nintendo invents the shoulder button, its copied. Nintendo invents the analog thumb stick, its copied. Nintendo invents the rumble pack, its copied. Nintendo invents the (working) wireless controller, its copied.

And now the Wii. I guarantee you it will be copied by sony and microsoft in the future. I believe it is the future of gaming wether some people like it or not. Nintendo is the only company with the balls to innovate, its occasionally hurt them but at least they are trying to make strides.

Saying that Nintendo is moving the industry backwards is laughable. Nintendo has done nothing but move the industry forward since the early 1980s, and thats exactly what they continue to do.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

People just care too much about graphics.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Well, like most things, it depends.

My favorite wrestling game of all time is Wrestlemania 2000 (or better yet, my import of Virtual pro Wrestling 2) for the N64. I still play that game to this day, and I love it for one reason: Gameplay. To this day I believe it is the single greatest fighting engine ever created. I picked it up after about 5 years of not playing it once, I intuitively knew how to play the game.

But keep in mind, the entire point of that game is gameplay. There is no real story, beyond fighting enough matches to earn money and unlock moves, hidden characters and skins. So poor graphics don't take anything away from that game because there is nothing for those graphics to augment.

Now try tanslating that to a game such as Devil May Cry, SOTC, Oni, Doom 3, The Condemned or Resident Evil... Those games depend on graphics to create a mood and help tell the story. If you have pathetic graphics in those types of games, it would kill what those games are trying to accomplish.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Setting a mood is done by art, not by polygons. I thought you'd know.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I'm pretty much done with this thread, I've had enough with the roundabouts. And I like the Wii. We need the next thread so everyone can rip apart the PS3 and the Xbox 360, just a quick final thought in response to BreakABone and Angrist:

I still disagree with you, but you're arguing with a PC gamer that has been shooting stuff since Doom. I don't think consoles have yet to forward the genre, and that includes the Wii, regardless of the Wiimote's increased interactivity.

It will be very interesting to see what the future holds for Sony and Microsoft and motion control.

That's not entirely true. Processing power/graphical power plays a pretty big role. Grand Theft Auto laid down the processor smack down. And games like Ocarina of Time have a great combination of AMAZING art style and console horsepower. I always mention Jet Set Radio, one of my favorite games, because I think it had a great combination of art style but needed some decent horsepower to run. I think we've murdered this discussion at GT already. But I agree with you for the most part, one of my still favorite games is No One Lives Forever, which came out in 2000 and runs on a modified Unreal engine (I think). It still has some of the best level design I have ever seen in an FPS.



Now...where is our thread where we get to criticize Sony and Microsoft?

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Hate to bump this thread, but didn't feel like starting a new one. I think this is an interesting way to look at shovelware on the Wii.

http://next-gen.biz/index.php?option...1&limitstart=2

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

What a shitty way to attempt at justifying all of the Wii's shovelware! Come on.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Well, that's probably the best spin you could do. At least you can't complain the Wii doesn't HAVE any third party stuff. Whether it's good is another question.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Most developers just don't have any idea what to do on the Wii.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

It's spin. The guy is supposed to say something like that. However, it's fairly weak. At the same time, I don't blame him for saying it.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

In his defense, he isn't a Nintendo guy so its not like he has to say it.

On the same hand, he has a point there is a ton of shit for the Ps2 and PSX but no one mentions that because at the end of the gen the only games that matter are the good ones.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Shovelware doesn't impede good games from being developed. The amount of truly great games is consistent across the big three. A handful. You can pick apart that handful based on your own preferences, but more generally, it is accepted that there are a couple gems a year that the majority of people recognize as such.

After that, it's just gradients of shit. The more popular you are, the more shit you attract, because the more likely that, given your popularity and market presence, anything will sell in some amount. Maybe enough to justify production of bland, unexciting tripe. Licensed shit is the worst of the worst, and that infects all platforms. The Wii is easier to develop quick and dirty riff-raff for. Its got more consoles in peoples' homes. It is marketed better to kids and to parents that will be less discerning in taste.

But truly good games will get made and will sell regardless of what system you talk about. Depending on how prude you want to be with your selectiveness, you can find around five or six games a year that will be exceptional.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I think Nintendo set the tone themselves. They released the system fast with mediocre graphics and shallow games, and made millions. 3rd parties see Nintendo doing it so they're trying to do the same thing. Cheapest development cost possible to get something on the shelves so the casual gamers might be confused enough and mistake it for a good game.

And I'm pretty sure I remember people talking about all the crap on Ps2 and Psx. The difference between Ps2 and Wii relitive to their own generations is Ps2 had all the mainstream 3rd party games alongside the crap. While Wii is missing quite a bit of games that are mainstream and Ps3/360 only at the time. (And the mainstream 3rd party titles it has are pretty much considered by hardcore fans of those games to be the worst versions)

I remember on AIM you said Wii will probably get decent versions of GTA and FF. We'll see.. haven't seen the announcement yet. I still don't really compare wii directly with the other consoles.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

I wouldn't say that is true. Well yeah they are copying the earlier success but games like Red Steel did well at launch as well. And Zelda but we won't count that.

That is pretty true.

How the hell do you remember what I said on AIM? I don't think I've spoken to you in months.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

No, no third parties have quite mimicked their success. I'd say because most third parties don't make good Wii games. Those that do reap the benefits. Those that don't still tend to make a profit, because the Wii is successful.

Since they care about profit more than you, the consumer, who they care about not at all as long as they get their money, the tone is set, not by Nintendo, but by the people who are willing to fork over the green for less-than-stellar video games.

Stupid consumers are stupid.

Re: BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong
 

Cause I love you. :)