Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Not really an accurate delineation; I use the term non-game to describe the new wave since it seems to be what everyone has adopted, but its a bit dumb.

Brain Age has a number activities that you must perform to unlock more activities. Each day, your goal is to test yourself and see if you have risen or lowered on the brain age scale. Something similar can be found in Wii Sports with charting your physical age. Unlocking things through play, time trials, a number of different activities; its very much a game. Its wrapped in this strange aesthetic thats foreign, so its given this non-game distinction to separate it, but looking at the actual mechanics of the game, its not a radical departure.

I haven't looked into Wii Fit, but I imagine it has similar modes to Wii Sports and Wii Play. The Yoga might be considered a non-game, but then, you're still interacting with on-screen prompts to progress, so is that really so far removed from the philosophy behind Guitar Hero, where, if I may parrot my favorite comparison ever, the gameplay consists of rapid Quick-time events.

As to "just playing," I think thats a flimsy differentiator when games exist with such radical differences in difficulty. If I pop into "very easy" mode in Metal Gear Solid, I "just play" and watch some movies. I think I actually am more engaged by Brain Age in that instance.

I consider non-games to be a lazy term that the enthusiast press picked up and ran with because it was easier than melding these games into the categories that already exist and which they only refine, not revolutionize. It would be harder and take longer to take a moment and analyze these games that seem different to see the underlying mechanics, and its very easy to say "oh, that doesn't look like anything I've ever done. No marines, no elves, no violence? Some mini-games? Non-game!"

Not as good as my other games and made me feel bad to have in my possession when other better games went unplayed. That has been seen to.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

I personally hate the term "non-game"
I also hate the use of casual vs hardcore but that's another topic.

I own and to some extent enjoy Brain Age, but the game itself has no real goals. If you get a Brain Age of 20 it isn't an end really. Just means you are sharp that day or know how to cheat the system well.

Most people declare it a non-game because there really isn't any reward for playing other than personal satisfication.
Sort of like the Sims.

Another arguement for another day. Level of difficulty in a game.

Wow i agree. :confused:

No More Heroes is fun. And enjoyable but its one of those games even I know you have to take the really bad to enjoy it. While the main action segments are fun, the game around it is hit or miss.

But that comment was directed at Aladuf who is so quick to post about Wii's shovelware, but hardly touches the notable games.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

At least I have a goal in TF 2 am I right?! booyah!

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Brain Age does have a goal when I play it. I play it to achieve or to maintain the lowest possible age. That's the goal I give to myself within the framework of the game. It does not explicitly encourage me to that specific style of play, but it is set up to allow it. My mom plays Brain Age for specific portions, and rarely if ever tests her age day-to-day. She plays free form, and sets up her own goal of wanting to do math problems faster that day. The game isn't directing her. She's directing her.

So this becomes hazy when we look at other games with the same mentality. What is the long-term goal in Halo 3 multiplayer? If its ranking, then what happens when I've achieved the highest possible rank? Is my goal then not to maintain that? What if I wasn't playing for rank to begin with? My goal was to win each game I entered. That's my soft goal. But there's no hard limit on "winning"; each time is like the first time. There's no progression outside that ranking that I might or might not care about. I'm not forced into anything. I have set up my own goal again.

More generally, isn't my ever present goal with a game to enjoy myself? That's what I consider a game; something I do for derived enjoyment. Games give me that enjoyment in different ways. Some have fun mechanics, some make me think, and some are just aesthetically pleasing (or sometimes, displeasing like in Silent Hill), and I like being transplanted into the world they're pushing.

"Sort of like the Sims"; do you consider the Sims to be a non-game? Similar to Brain Age, there are arbitrary goals in place, but I rarely followed them. I liked to wall off the Sims and make my own goals for the day. Its similar with Grand Theft Auto. The story is there with its linear progression and set of developer-set goals, but I spend the bulk of my time on free play, where the only goal is to see what I can and cannot do within the game world. There is no goal or "reward" in that for me beyond "personal satisfaction"

It's not good in the same way it is not bad. Its average and adequate, but not remarkable, and when its peers are, it becomes unnecessary. Until such time as it is the only game left unplayed from my library.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

The point of me saying that Nintendo fans buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games was simply to establish that, while they'd certainly welcome quality third-party titles, they're generally happy either way... But that this new casual pseudo/non-gamer that's responsible for an unknown (but probably fairly substantial) chunk of it's sales isn't necessarily buying the Wii for either of those.

But I suppose the main difference between buying Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games vs. 360/ps3 for GTAIV is that GTAIV is a third-party title...
I also really don't think it's fair to say that a console with a LOWER game-to-console attach rate is being purchased for Nintendo GAMES (plural), while the console with more robust game sales is being bought for a single title (GTAIV)...

If you look at the top-selling games on each console, GTAIV is just one of many 2+ million sellers from third parties that make up 360's list...

Xbox 360 sales:

2: CoD4
3: Gears of War
6: Assassin's Creed
7: Guitar Hero III
8: Oblivion
10: Madden 08
11: Ghost Recon
12: Rainbow Six Vegas
13: Guitar Hero II
14: CoD3
15: CoD2

And the trend continues with third-party games that sold between 1 and 2 million... Mass Effect, Saints Row, Bioshock, Fight Night, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Rock Band, Need for Speed games...

PS2's and the original Xbox's lists are similar to that...

Now compare that all to say...

N64
Gamecube
and Wii
*strokes chin*

Of course not... I was moreso referring to future generations of consoles...
If Wii ultimately dominates the sales charts by these margins when all is said and done this generation, Sony and MS might want to look into ways to tap into this new market Nintendo created... And I'd be curious to see what they come up with, because they're certainly not going to succeed simply by adding a waggle to their next $600 powerhouse of a console...

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Now the interesting question is:

Don't 3rd party games sell on Nintendo consoles because there are too many great 1st party games?
Or don't they sell because Nintendo fans are way too loyal/stupid?

I used to think it was the first. I couldn't even buy all the great Nintendo games, so why would I get the 3rd party games?
But now I'm starting to think it's the second... Okami and Boom Blox are better games than many Nintendo has made, but I doubt they'll sell much.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

It's a mixture of both I think. The problem, is that by releasing a title on a Nintendo console, you are competing with Nintendo on quality. Most Ninty games are really good (I said most, not all). So it's difficult to try and get up to that level. Hence why most developers don't try, because they realize people will wonder why get this when X related Nintendo game is better?

There are standout games people will buy. You have to advertise and convince people that it is worth it (along with word of mouth, which helped the Wii more then any advertising with Wii Sports).

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Whoa whoa whoa, wait. That is not how I feel. I know that devs like Epic or Bungie etc. aren't gonna change their games into mini-games or things like that. I'm actually annoyed at the people that are marking this as the end of "hardcore gaming" because of what? April NPD? Nintendo had a month like many others, 700,000+ sales and PS3/360 suffered a bit. But these people who sit here and say that GTA4 was hardly the HD consoles "savior" is retarded. It was five days at the end of April, do we all not still think that GTA4 will most likely sell 8-9 million and possibly more? Hardcore gaming is going as strong as ever, and people need to realize that.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

When you release a game on any console, you are competing with all the other Third, Second, and (even on PS3 and 360, the occasional) First Party games of high quality, with established names from established developers...

Probably both, and a few more... You also have to take into consideration the fact that, during the previous two generations, there had been significantly fewer Nintendo consoles in the hands of consumers then there were say, Playstations (Something like 6-to-1 last gen, 3-to-1 the gen before that)... So lower sales were to be expected to begin with...

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

The thing is, is that MS and Sony made games aren't held up to the same standard Nintendo games are in the general populace, hence why alot of games on the Wii or GC or N64 didn't sell as well, because people come to expect quality from Nintendo (with a rare exception once in awhile).

For other consoles, yeah, you have to compete against alot more, but there isn't a defacto company to compare to for the most part. Yeah, I'm having a hard time explaining it. Oh well.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Overall, no... Which is why I said "the occasional", in reference to MS and Sony...
I don't know of any specific examples in MS's case (since I'm an Xbox n00b), but I believe Team Ico (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus) is a first party developer for Sony... God of War and Gran Turismo are first party titles...
And yeah, that may be 4 games/franchises established over 2+ console generations... But... Hey... "occasional" :p

Maybe it's just because you're having a hard time explaining exactly what you mean, or maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I don't see why the lack of having a single company to compare quality to is an issue when there still exists an overall tier of high-quality titles from a collection of high-quality developers...

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

I agree, there is alot of high quality titles from everyone (well, almost everyone). ICO, God of War, CoD 4, etc...It's just that there is still a 'hardcore' Nintendo fanbase that doesn't always see beyond the box still, unfortunately. Heck, the 360 was my first non-Nintendo console ever (I don't count Genesis/Dreamcast because I got them after they were pretty much dead and cheap fun from the good ol' days is nice).

I wasn't a blind fanboy, I prefer Ninty games because of the quality of them, and I wasn't as financially able to afford more then one console like I can now. Now that the 360 has introduced such a wide array of decent titles, and the fact that the way Live was done this generation was in a great way compared to before, I enjoy looking outside the box now that I can :p

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Maybe people just like playing established franchises. I know I'd rather play F-Zero than WipeOut. Rather Kid Icarus than God of War.

Hm, maybe it's because of the good character design. WipeOut is faceless, while F-Zero has all these interesting characters and a story to go with it.

Fact is, you'd rather compete with God of War than with Zelda.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Kid Icarus? Really? Really?

You poor bastard.

WipEout is also fun. F-Zero GX could take notes. :P

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

I've never played a GoW game, so that explains my ignorance. But I think it 'proves' my point.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

You're missing out. The GoW games are really awesome, I'm playing GoW: CoO on the PSP right now and it is really fun.

In a way I guess it proves your point, but it also proves that you need to expand past Nintendo games IMO.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

I think it's quite obvious that people like playing established franchises, no arguing there...
Although I'd hardly call Kid Icarus an established franchise, since as it stands now, it's still a one-off game from like 20 years ago...
God of War, on the other hand, earned a 93% score on gamerankings and sold 3.2 million, despite not being an established franchise, and despite coming from a division of Sony who's only previous game was the middling racer Kinetica...
It's success spawned a sequel, which earned a 92% rating and has sold 2 million, and a PSP game, which earned a 91%, and sold... Well, nobody buys PSP games...
But, when discussing the general public's reaction to a game, those stats are hardly anything to frown at...

That's true... But would you rather compete with Zelda or Final Fantasy? Zelda or Dragon Warrior? Zelda or Gran Turismo? Zelda or Grand Theft Auto?
Only 1 out of those 4 are from Sony, but all are high-quality games from established franchises which, at least during the previous two generations (which is when developers started becoming wary of Nintendo consoles), you could only find on Sony consoles, and that was my whole point...

The competition on Playstation and Xbox might not be coming from Sony and Microsoft, but it's still there, and it's still of very high quality...

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

And don't forget God of War 3 for PS3 next year! :D

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

This has less to do with God of War and more to do with the fact that you mentioned Kid Icarus as relevant in any context.

Its a piece of shit.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Doesn't come out often, but top 10s across the board from April.

Top 20 Video Game Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* (Xbox 360) 1.850.000
2. Mario Kart Wii (Wii) 1.120.000
3. Grand Theft Auto IV* (PS3) 1.000.000
4. Wii Play w/ Remote (Wii) 360.000
5. Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) 326.000
6. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue (PS3) 224.000
7. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness (NDS) 202.000
8. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time (NDS) 202.000
9. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Wii) 152.000
10. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* (Xbox 360) 141.000
11. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (PSP)
12. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2* (Xbox 360) 103.500
13. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3 (PS2)
14. Game Party (Wii)
15. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock* (PS2)
16. New Super Mario Bros. (NDS)
17. Mario Kart DS (NDS)
18. Rock Band* (Xbox 360)
19. Mario Party DS (NDS)
20. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii)

Top 10 Wii Titles:
1. Mario Kart Wii 1.120.000
2. Wii Play w/ Remote 360.000
3. Super Smash Bros. Brawl 326.000
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 152.000
5. Game Party
6. Super Mario Galaxy
7. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
8. Carnival Games
9. Mario Party 8
10. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08

xx. Okami < 100.000

~Interesting that Okami Wii is apparently just shy of 100k.
Though I do take issue with Game Party, Carnival Games and Mario Party 8 being on the list. The rest of the list isn't awful. I find it weird that Tiger Woods is still selling so well.

Top Xbox 360 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.850.000
2. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* 141.000
3. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 103.500
4. Rock Band*
5. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
6. Army of Two
7. Major League Baseball 2K8
8. Halo 3*
9. Iron Man
10. Assassin's Creed*
~Not surprising seeing how most do, but Iron Man is pretty high up on the list for coming in so late in the game. The list features most of the expected games.

Top PS2 Titles:
1. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3
2. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
3. MLB '08: The Show
4. God of War II
5. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3
6. Rock Band*
7. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
8. Metal Gear Solid: Essential Collection
9. Iron Man
10. Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy

Top 10 PS3 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.000.000
2. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue 224.000
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2*
6. Rock Band*
7. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
8. Army of Two
9. Assassin's Creed*
10. Iron Man
~Very similar list to the 360.

Top 10 NDS Titles:
1. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness 202.000
2. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time 202.000
3. New Super Mario Bros.
4. Mario Kart DS
5. Mario Party DS
6. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
7. Imagine: Babyz
8. Pokemon Diamond Version
9. The World Ends With You 43.000
10. Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day
-
xx. Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword 23.700

~The world awaits the eventual merger of Pokemario. The first game to sell a billion copies opening day. :p

Top 10 PSP Titles:
1. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
2. God of War: Chains of Olympus 64.000
3. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
6. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition
7. Ratchet & Clank: Size Matters
8. Patapon
9. Need for Speed Carbon: Own the City
10. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas

http://www.interactive.org/top-ten.php

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

I don't understand why Wii Play is still classified as software; they're buying it for the controller. Its always going to be up there.

Pull a Harry Potter here, NPD guys. Reclassify that shit.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

Well thats easy. Nintendo sells it as a game with a controller and not vice versa. It's why a game like Link's Crossbow is never counted since that is sold as the zapper with a free game. Nor is Wii Sports counted.

Re: April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo
 

I know why.

I mean

why