Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

Vamp:
1) You're mixing together a whole lot of data. Thats why I concentrated on the numbers that asked what people felt about their level of care, and the vast majority think it's ok or better. If this was not the case, there would be no debate right now, and we'd already have a bill regardless of cost.

2) Money is an issue, and quite honestly it should be. More money is wasted by the government than anyone else. Look at California... the highest taxes and the highest debt and they're just about ready to collapse.

2) Do you think only a government run program can work?

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

I've been reading some of the arguments in another thread. The biggest negative I see is the supposed cost of switching to a public option for health care.

But as I stated before...America spends over $500 more per person on health care than other countries with a public option. Administrative costs for our health care are exorbitantly high compared to universal care systems.

I can't help but to think in the long run it would make sense financially to switch to a public option.

Another argument is that the government has traditionally messed up health care. What sort of reasoning is that? If other governments can do it, so can we.

Also, about the Republican plan: Yes, those are all great ideas. But they aren't a real plan for health care. They are auxiliary options which can be implemented alongside public health care.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

I've already addressed the high-cost issue of health care in a previous thread. The exorbenate cost of our health services is, in fact, due to excessive government intervention. Please see my below quoted post:

" 1. Government intervention has historically raised health care costs, and will continue to do so if the government's role is increased (did you know that the government created today's insurance/HMO/PPO companies?).

Allow me to first use a few relevant and important statistical charts:



This chart depicts health care expenditures as percent of GDP and per capita. As you can see health care expenditures have nearly tripled as a percent of GDP since the 1960s, as well as the cost per capita of health care. This begs the question: what has lead to this enormous increase in the cost of health care?



This chart depicts average annual CPI change (%) by component. Once again we see the rise in medical care significantly outpacing the change of all other items. And, again, this begs the question, why?

For the answer to this question, I harkon back to my original point, that the rapid (and recent) rise in health care costs is primarily due to the advent of insurance/HMO/PPO companies, which were mandated by, and heavily regulated, by the government. In fact, the health insurance industry is perhaps the most heavily regulated industry in our country.

For an exact explanation of what HMO/PPO companies are and how they function, I would recommend outside sources, as I don’t want to go into too much detail concerning them. Suffice to say, they are a middle man, between you and your doctor. Middle men naturally raise the price of any good, as they have raised the price of health care.

Let’s consult one more chart, which depicts who is paying for health care costs:



Here again we see a stark contrast from the 1960s to present day. During the 1960s, the majority of health care was paid by out-of-pocket, and a small fraction was paid by the federal government. Present day, only a small fraction is paid by out-of-pocket, and payments by the federal government have quadrupled. I would, again, correlate this back to the rise of the HMO/PPO, as mandated by the federal government.

(These charts are derived from numbers provided by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.)"


Also, this essay by Dr. Yaron Brook of the Ayn Rand Institute briefly summarizes the government's role in driving up the cost of health care: http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?pa...s_iv_ctrl=2401

Have you recently looked at France's marginal income tax rate? It is drastically higher than ours. That is why they are able to afford and subsidize their hybrid healthcare system. The French tax at least 40% of ones earnings if they earn above the equivalent of 95,000 dollars per year (Source: http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2005doc.nsf/LinkTo/NT00002E0A/$FILE/JT00187984.PDF).

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

Uh oh, that article dares to state that healthcare isn't a "right". I think 1/2 the people stopped reading right there. :lol:

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Bond: I'm not saying you're wrong, but isn't the key word here health care reform? Aren't the things you posted exactly what we want to change?

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

So you'll decrease costs by moving forward with more public intervention... the very reason why costs are so high.

What Bond is saying is that increase public spending/intervention has shown to do nothing but increase costs exponentially. Now there are a lot of lovely assumptions being made by those that are for public healthcare, most saying that they'll lower costs... but understand that there is no evidence that government intervention has ever done anything but increase costs and waste.

Meanwhile, evidence shows costs were lower per capita when the individual controlled most of their healthcare spending.

Now will it work this time? Well, thats what proponents of socialization have been hoping for 100 years... It hasn't worked out yet, and I have yet to see a reason to believe it will now.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

I've already went through it all with them before Vamp.. so I'm not interested in repeating myself over and over. You're dealing with people who don't exactly have sympathy for people who have issues with the current health insurance system, and you're dealing people who don't think that healthcare is a right.

So I guess we have to wait for them to lose their jobs and get sick, or wait for a close family memeber to get sick and be kicked off of their insurance for them to understand how broken the system is, and what is broken about it.

Anyway, to the only new thing:

A lot of paranoid parents want their kids to go to private schools.. that's nothing new. That doesn't change the fact that the socialized schooling system does work, and gives the oppertunity to all children in this country to become educated. I don't have any stats to back myself up, but last I checked countries who have their school systems ran by the government fair a lot better then countries who have their school system ran by the private sector exclusively.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

Oh really? I had no health insurance for two years while going back to school, and was unemployed for 6 months at one point with no healthcare.

Also, I ushering my father-in-law through a heart transplant using government healthcare (veteran and disability).

I was there when they kicked him out of the hospital when he hit a certain $ amount, regardless of his complications.

I sat there while he laid curled up in a ball because his "health care by numbers" system had his multiple doctors assign him 10x the normal dose of prednazone. He turned into a giant fucking bruise.

I was there when he fell and his elbow turned to dust and his government run healthcare denied his the prep time he required for surgery (due to the anti-rejection medication) because he had received all the money the government allows for his heart transplant. So instead, the hospital falsified a morphine drip (creating extra charges for drugs he didn't need or use) and brought him in due to pain, instead of just prepping him like normal. More waste that everyone pays for.

We spent over a goddamn year trying to get his past all the red tape and closed doors and explain to people the spreadsheet that dictated his care was wrong.

I've been in THE SHIT. I've wallowed in it. I've seen government run healthcare up close and personal.

I've also seen my grandparents (only one still alive) receive excellent, sympathetic care through private insurance. The only horrible care I've ever seen is the government kind.

So keep your ignorant and spiteful opinions to yourself.

I agree. I never said I was against public schooling, and I've stated numerous times it's probably the only socialized service in the US that works. Mainly because it's locally run allowing for better control and management. I think part of the problem with nationally controlled programs is the distance from the end user/recipient. Locally run social programs tend to be much more effectively executed because of the close proximity of the decision maker.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

Sorry to hear about your father in law. But I'm sure the story would have been a lot worse if private health insurance was his only option.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

Never mind the fact that I've had all of my grandparents go through extended care sessions and multiple lifesaving surgeries, each instance with excellent care from private insurance. The care provided was for emphysema, a stroke, old age (basically last minute hospice) and phlebitis (a month in hospital for that to have stents put in both her 91 year old legs). Only one is still with us, but I can't say a thing bad about their doctors or their care. A nurse even helped me rub my grandmother's stomach the day before she died because she was so uncomfortable and she didn't want any drugs.

I even mentioned they had excellent private insurance care and you quoted it.

But I'm sure you think it would be worse anyway... because if it wasn't worse it wouldn't fit your predisposed opinion.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

Pretty much, unfortunately I'm predisposed to my own experiences. I've only witnessed the exact opposite. I guess your family is blessed to have decent private health insurance. :) Unfortunately most people aren't that blessed when they develop health conditions.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

From personal experience, I know and have spoken with frequently: two hospital CEOs, one health insurance CEO, and several persons who work for insurance companies, hospitals, and health systems.

They are all capitalist pigs who solely care about profit.

P.S. They also hate poor people.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

They're also rich too, right? :)

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I hate poor people too...

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

All I've heard about is the This American Life episode where a lady talks about how she got cancer and was dropped from coverage because she once incorrectly reported that she hadn't taken some acne medication. Insurance companies will look for ANY reason to drop you when you really need coverage.

Also, dropping people for predisposed conditions is terrible. I got a blood test recently because my brother almost died from a genetic blood disorder (he didn't have health insurance, didn't really have the $$$ to pay for it, we put off going to the ER for that reason and that's why he could have died, but that's a whole other story). So I buy health insurance, pay a decent amount of money for it, and get a blood test, and the insurance company tries to charge me the full amount for it. They tried to squeeze any bill possible out of my pocket. I'm kind of afraid to go back to the doctor, what will they try to charge for me next? I ended up not even having the same blood disorder! The privatization is not a good option, and we need a good public option.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

I <3 This American Life. Have you started listening to the Planet Money Podcast? It's quite good as well!

To be fair to the insurance companies in this situation, making that kind of an error on a legally-binding insurance contract is, possibly, grounds for voiding the said contract. The mistake of the woman not including her acne medication must have been material to her care, otherwise it would not be grounds for a breech of contract. It's actually more of a legal issue than a health care issue.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

So in your experience you've seen excellent government care and horrible private care? Really?

At this point there is not reason to continue, because this thread has become a creative writing class, not a discussion of policy.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

After reading that Republican platform on healthcare, I have some thoughts.

Firstly, I believe that raising competitiveness between providers would decrease prices but the rest of that 'platform' seems to be based on adding incentives to the plan that is currently in place without really offering any change. Sure, educating people better is important but it doesn't change a lot. That information must exist and be accessible to those who are looking for coverage, yes?

Is not one of the major issues with your healthcare system the extreme difficulty to get insurance when you have a pre-existing condition? There appears to be nothing that you listed that addresses this issue. No matter what incentives or information you throw out there, insurance companies still won't give people insurance who aren't cost-effective. If someone needs cancer treatment and is uninsured, what makes that company want to take on the extreme loss of money they will suffer for insuring that person?

The only option for these people seems to be to bankrupt themselves and their families. Is this not the reason for universal healthcare?


And when the Obama administration says that they won't shut down the pre-existing system, what are people even afraid is at stake?

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

(Photo from earlier today)

Didn't the campaign end last year? Quite odd choosing to use a former campaign logo over the seal of the Office of the President.

Re: Has anyone seen these polls?
 

He's campaigning for 2012!