Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

It's hard to say without reading the actual bill, but this bill sounds like it sucks.

What the hell?

1. I'm all for making people have health insurance...but only through taxes that fund a pubic option - not forcing them to give money to for-profit organizations.

2. A fine if you don't pay, but only for people who could afford to pay? First of all, this bill makes mention of people who can't afford premiums. I thought our health care reform was supposed to make sure EVERYONE can have health insurance. According to this language, there will still be a group of people who just don't have health insurance.

3. How do they calculate if you "can't afford the premiums"? Shouldn't this be an individual's decision? This scare's me quit a bit, since it's the government who decides how much a family can contribute to paying for someone's college, and they grossly overestimate that. I don't expect them to be any more lenient on this.

They need to stop trying compromise on this. By trying to be too moderate they are compromising themselves into a bill which will only change the way we do things, and not necessarily improve them by any significant amount. It's not worth changing something this complex unless you're actually going to take a big step forward. This is expensive lateral movement at best, and expensive downward movement at worst.

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Well its a double edged sword with democrats, the party is split. If they included the public option it would be daring the "conservative democrats" to vote against it, and with it not including the public option it is daring the "progressive democrats" to vote against it... So it is quiite interesting.

To me, the most important thing.. is that no matter what republicans will vote against it. So I agree with Vamp, they need to stop compromising on this bill.. As I posted earlier in the thread, 77% of people are in favor of the public option on average between the two polls. They should just do what the people want instead of bowing down to the minority.

We need campaign finance reform more then anything..

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Keep in mind those numbers reflect whether or not people favor a public option, not necessarily any public option plan we've seen or that has been presented. These polls examione people's openess to the idea/concept, not the reality.

IMO the current climate reflect's people's reaction to practical application of that idea/concept.

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That'll circle us back to a debate about why things are changing. I'll agree with you on the first sentance of what you wrote.. But I don't think its "the people" who are killing or watering down healthcare reform, its the people who are paying the politicians who are killing and watering it down.

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Or it could be all the raucus town hall meetings and the thousands that showed up at the Capital over the weekend to protest... unless you think they're all employees of the healthcare companies and pharma companies (most that now support a public option, for the record).

But thats a difference of opinion and as you said, we'd be retreading old arguments.

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I think that those outbursts at townhalls, and the 9-12 people are a very small and loud minority.

I'd really hope that this isn't a big portion of americans, or even a big part of the republican party..



(Read the guy's sign in the part at 3:03-3:19)

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I'm certainly not qualified to make political discussion concerning Socialism vs. Capitalism (I mean I have some idea...) but holy fuck these people are morons:



There are good arguments about having concern for socialized health care, but these people are a mindless mob. What happened to mobs who were passionate for their cause and loved what they are fighting for? This is just a mob that has hatred towards Obama. You can't reach goals if you platform on hate and don't love the cause you are fighting for.

On a lighter note, many of these people look like they would be right at home at Walmart. :D

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^ Saw that earlier today. When the interviewer called them out and actually explained the terms to them it made me realize they're not bad people; just really stupid and misinformed folks who are force fed lies which they eat with gusto.

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And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

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But what is the point of the rally? To offer a humane and logical alternative to socialized health care or to chastise Obama? It seems like most of the opposition in this rally is towards Obama and the current administration rather than actual policty. You and Bond have both made valid arguments concerning big Government controlling health care. And there is a lot to be said about Big Pharma's role and failed programs like Medicare and Medicaid. The Socialist ideal is NOT Hitler nor is it communism. Nor is Obama trying to make America a socialist country...health care reform is a logical step in the progress of humanity.

I realize this interviewer probably cherry picked the dumbest of the dumb, but why show up to a rally if you don't have any idea what you are rallying about?

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Before this erupts into a passionate discussion I just want to say something about rallies and protests. Rallies and protests are supposed to inspire OTHER people as well as to make a statement and a stand. I look at the Civil Rights rallies or the Feminist rallies or the anti-Vietnam protests or the LBGT protests and I think...."wow...look at those brave people standing up for major injustice. Look at those people stand up for the struggling, suffering people out there."

When I look at these tea party rallies I think, "Wow...a bunch of dumb rednecks don't care about health care reform (they don't care about the millions of people with no health care) and they don't know the difference between political terms most people should have learned in 5th grade. And look! They think Obama is the anti-Christ! Because it says it in the Bible! Oh man...as a Catholic who has gone to church for 20 years, I bet big money that guy hasn't even read the Bible!"

If this rally was supposed to inspire me then I must confess I am quite flaccid. On the other hand, I have enjoyed the discussions here between Prof S and TheGame, you guys are quite entertaining. :p And Bond's maturity is perhaps a little too sobering for my tastes at times, but he makes some valid points. And Earl dresses up like Batman every night. So it's a win win.

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A scholarly and well spoken person probably wouldn't support the 9-12 deal, and probably woulnd't yell out like a moron at a town hall meeting.

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Haha.. damn you got me there... though I wouldn't call the guy who yelled that well spoken.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

All I can argue is my view point on the issue, which I've done many times and I think quite effectively. Regardless of whether or not you want to dismiss the opposition, you can't ignore it's size and effect on the discussion going on right now, even if you really really want to... and it seems like many of you really really want to.

It seems that when one side loses an argument, it it feels a ego driven need to dismiss the other side as stupid, ignorant, foolish or even now RACIST instead of recognizing the legitimate arguments and the effect they've had.

Funny... I never thought lying was a black stereotype! I suppose the race card was bound to be played sooner or later, and thankfully most people are too smart to fall for it in such a simple cut and dry case.

What's funnier is watching people grab at straws trying to find anything they can to smear their opponent when they can't win the issue at hand.

So does anyone else have anything to add other than grand generalizations and insults?

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Okay, first of all, no one serious holds the views depicted in that video. The United States is a very, very populous country. We have plenty of room for misguided souls. I am confident the persons depicted in the video represent an extreme minority.

So, why do they receive so much attention? Because of this:
Right, but does anyone on TV want to see someone like me bring out charts and bar graphs to demonstrate economic forces behind health care changes? I doubt it. On the other hand, who wants to see someone dumber than them make a fool of themselves on national TV? Lots of people!

I don't think we should be so much angry at these protestors for holding their views, but rather try to understand why they believe it to be so?

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Professor, the part in the speech where it was inturrupted by a "you lie" shout.. was Obama lying? To me the racism doesn't come in what is being argued, its how its being argued. Its being led by a lot of misguided hate and fear mongering.

Where were all the animated protests when Dick Cheny famously said "deficits don't matter"? Where were the congressmen yelling out "you lie" when Bush was linking Iraq to 9-11? Why weren't people standing outside of Bush town halls with their guns? Why is Obama constantly called a racist?

And Bond, I think its cheap to blame the media for the faults of the people who are actually making fools of themselves. The media would have no Ammo to play such "entertaining" opposition to the president if conservative talk show hosts, republican congressmen, and misguided Glen Beck followers didn't GIVE them the ammo to begin with. The media didn't make anyone blurt out "you lie" in an extremely disrespectful manner, a republican representative did it on his own.

Unless he's in on the media conspiracy too... :ohreilly:

-EDIT-

Just to add to the last point a little. Do you think the Media should have congradulated or focused on all the other republican congressmen for staying quiet and not blurting out anything? Really?

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Was he technically lying? No. Was he either ignorant of deceitful in the realities of the HR 3200, which I assume was what he was referring to since it was the only bill that passed anything at that point, YES. And I explained how earlier, but I'll do so again.

While the bill states that no healthcare can be provided to illegals, there is no policing in place, and when amendments to the bill were introduced to police the policy they were shot down.

So according to HR 3200, it's basically a don't ask/don't tell policy that says one thing but refuses to enforce it making the "ban" worthless and ineffective. The fact that efforts to enforce the ban were shot down on multiple occassions leads us to the obvious conclusion that it is intentionally worthless and ineffective

It's this type of intellectual dishonesty that makes people yell things at inappropriate times...

Ok, there is a lot in there, most of it a bit rediculous, but I'll take them one at a time.

1) Deficits - To compare the Bush deficits to the Obama deficits is the equivalent of comparing Pike's Peak to Mount Everest. Look at the numbers. In any case, I think Cheney was wrong and there has always been conservative resistance to spending, just not Republican party resistance, and that was a big mistake on their part because they valued pork/re-election instead of doing the right thing. You've certainly never heard me say that spending isn't a problem. Spending was a huge problem when the Republicans were in control under Bush, and is 10 times the problem now under the democrats.

Is there some hipocrisy from Repubs on spending, absolutley, but I would chalk that up to political gamemanship rather than "racism".

2) The "You lie" fiasco was a violation of protocol, not message. I remember a TON of Dems calling Bush a liar throughout his 8 years with even less to go on than Wilson did. They just never made the mistake of doing so in session. So were they racists as well, or does being member of the Democrat party absolve one of racist belief? So do you think it's the location of the accusation that is racist? If so, what locations are racist locations to voice dissent?

3) Town halls and guns - If you want to concentrate on the handful of unfortunate protesters who brought weapons, feel free, and by the way one of the people mentioned in those reports was a black man, but how is that necessarily racist? Are guns racist? Do guns hate black people? Could they have been reacting more to policy they hate? These are wild, illogical leaps you are making.

4) Obama is constantly called a racist? I remember Glenn Beck saying that once (maybe Rush but I'm not sure as I don't listen to him and rarely to Glenn), but constantly? And by who besides Glenn/Rush? Has a former president called Obama a racist, like Carter called the opposition? At best I'd say that the left and right are tied in the racism accusation competition, if that.

Looking at your comments, I'll just assume that now that Democrats are in power you view dissent as racism. It's a lazy and stupid argument and honestly you're better than that.

As for the media, where were they with the whole ACORN issue? You have days of filmed proof that a publicly funded community organization group is teaching people to avoid taxes and break the law in outrageous ways... and only FoxNews carries it? Regardless of political opinion or who broke the story, wasn't that news worthy of broadcast? Where was NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.?

No. They were too busy concentrating on Joe Wilson breaking protocol (regardless of the apology or the fact Pres. Obama accepted it) to cover real news.

There is no such thing s journalism anymore, at least not how it was taught to me in school. If you want the truth, find it yourself and question everything.



EDIT: Looking back on this thread, I see exactly how effective the race card can be. Are we talking about Healthcare reform anymore and it's merits/pitfalls? No. Instead we're talking about whether or not people's motives are racist and attacking PEOPLE instead of discussing IDEAS. It's called "ad hominem". Objective achieved, I guess. So much for honest public discourse. Socrates is rolling over in the his grave right about now (and Saul Alinski is cheering wildly)...

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Just to comment on something I happen to know about, NPR ran a piece on the ACORN issue. They played the clip, and explained what happened.

But as you mentioned about the video from the D.C. rallies, the guys who made the ACORN video also only showed the worst example. It turns out they got lots more hidden camera footage of ACORN employees from other locations calling the cops on the supposed pimps. And yet none of those videos were included, only the worst example. Where's the journalistic integrity there?

EDIT: Not to mention it's on the front page of CNN.com right now.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

There is one majory difference between comparing the ACORN and 9/12 issues, not that I agree with many 9/12'ers on many of their assertions or their methods.

ACORN takes public money. 9/12'ers don't.

As for those that threw them out, you don't get credit for doing what you're obviouly supposed to do. Now if the filmmaker were asked if anyone threw them out and they said no, then I think we could question their integrity, but the story is in the gross misconduct not whether or not some people behaved properly. I will agree that the journalist should have volunteered that some offices did not help them, but it should have beenno more than a disclosure.

The fact that it happened once is bad enough and should have been major news across the board, much less multiple times in several offices in several cities. I know that CNN and other places are covering it now, but thats because they are at the point they had to. It took them days to cover any of it, so I give them little to no credit.

EDIT: I found the ACORN artile on CNN... at the bottom after scrolling for a bit, and it concentrates on new training for employees, which I hope is a good thing and they really follo through on the promise.

Add to that how Van Jones was never really looked into, and they spent more time covering the fact he called Republicans "assholes" than the fact that he is a 9/11 truther and at least formerly a communist. Once again, both of these things are legitimate news items regardless of idealogy and they were largely ignored until immedacy forced their recognition.

I give credit to NPR for carrying it, and I never include them in my thoughts on journalistic corruption. They might be one of the last remaining bastions of journalistic integrity.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Prof, I agree with you mostly on the things you have said. But your points don't address what racism really is to begin with.. With that said, in your opinion, what is racism?

Let me give an example...

A cop is sitting on a corner behind a sign. The speed limit is 50MPH and he is checking how fast people are going... A white guy rolls past the sign at 70MPH, and the cop shrugs him off. A black guy goes past the sign at 60MPH and the cop takes off quick and pulls the black guy over.

If you consider race relevant in this situation, then it can be percieved to be racist since he let the white guy go, and he pulled over the black guy. However, if you want to dismiss race from this scenario, the fact is that the black guy was pulled over because he was speeding. If he wouldn't have been speeding, he wouldn't have been pulled over, right? Or maybe the first guy just happend to be going fast enough that the cop didn't think he could catch up.. right?

With that said, I'm not going to waste my time argueing the fact that Obama has done some things that are not agreeable to a group of people. However, I will argue that when he does anything, he gets a worse reaction then when a white president does the same thing.

For example.. Gitmo. When Bush wanted to close it, people respected his decision to want to close it. Even though some may have got on his case for using it in the first place, generally nobody wanted to talk him down when he wanted to close it. Then, when Obama wants to do the same thing, all of a sudden its a big discussion, and people even come out in support of gitmo and torture.

Another example, when Bush talked about getting troops out of Iraq, nobody argued with him. They understood that its the right thing to do. When Obama talks about it, his motives are questioned, and its a discussion again. Some politicians come out and say that we should be in Iraq as long as it takes to reach the impossible goal...

I think the outbursts at Obama for pushing for some of the same things as his predecessors can easily be seen as racist. While I agree, the bottom line is that they're fighting the policy, just like the bottom line is that the black man was speeding in my first example.

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Didn't the South use this argument before the Civil War? :p I kid, I kid....there's always two sides to every argument. It's my opinion that there hasn't been a ton of intelligible arguments on the News or TV or at these rallies. Most of the intelligent discussion is happening under the radar or perhaps in Congress? That's just what I see.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...t----oh-my.php
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/p...ase_NJ_916.pdf

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Fair assertions methinks. And you're right, I didn't hear anything about it on CNN.com until today (though it was in their top headlines when I checked earlier), while I heard it on NPR I believe either Monday or Tuesday this week. I almost never check any other news sources so I can't say for them.

I didn't know that the ACORN problems happened in multiple cities until today. I don't condone it whatsoever, and as NPR said in their piece the employees were immediately fired and more training is being done which I hope helps. While not exactly an excuse, it also sounds like ACORN is run mostly by volunteers so I wouldn't expect all of them to know immediately what to do in such situations without some formal training.

But the point I was making about only showing the bad examples is, what if they did 300 videos and then only five of them were bad examples? Certainly that makes it seem like just a few bad apples and not a systemic problem. I mean, in any organization you can't expect perfection. On the other hand, if they did 10 videos and five of them were bad examples, that would be a systemic problem. The numbers ought to be disclosed.

EDIT: Because of how you worded your reply, I'm not sure you were clear on what I meant. I wasn't trying to compare the 9/12 and ACORN issues, just the videos about them.

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KG, I read the article and the poll... and the article tales a few liberties with the results.

There is nothing in that poll that states 1/3 of Conservatives think Obama is a the anti-Christ. I saw that 18% did, but then again in the same poll 5% of Liberals aren't sure if he is or isn't, and 10% of those that voted for him think he is or aren't sure.

Overall, those poll numbers are plain weird. I think people from both sides are losing their minds over all of this stuff.

Well...it is Jersey for Christ's (or the anti-Christ's) sake. :p

EDIT: Oh, and Corzine is screwedin his election. What a complete and utter failure.

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Hehe...I'm glad you saw the humor in the poll. I posted it for the LOLs, not for any serious discussion. I think the bottom line is there are idiots on both side of the spectrum. This country boggles the mind sometime. On the other hand, we have the women with the biggest breasts, the burgers with the most beef, and the biggest nukes. God bless America! :D

Anyway...onward with the Health Care Reform discussion!

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wtf...

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O'Reilly has been pro reform from the beginning. And for the record, I agree with many of his thoughts on healthcare reform. He's along the same lines as McCain in his views on the subject.

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I've never seen him say anything remotely in favor of the government creating a low priced health insurance option. But admittedly, I don't watch his show..

So, once again.. wtf

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Not entirely surprising, considering O'Reilly's background. He is a very independent traditionalist.

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So, I'm bored with the forum being dead so I'm gonna toss in another poll here... As my first poll showed, 77% of Americans on AVERAGE between polls would prefer that there were a choice between private run health insurance and government ran insurance.

So what do doctors think about this?

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...58F3VJ20090916
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_286352.html

63% for a public healthcare option alongside private, and 73% of doctors against having private insurance companies exclusively. From these polls, its safe to say that either the center is in favor of a public option, or there's bipartisan support by the people for this reform.

So why are our leaders backpeddaling on the idea? Once again, I think it comes down to who pays them.

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Game, my answer to this poll is the exact same to the answer to the poll of average citizens...

In fact, to further illustrate tis point, another recent poll showed 56% being against THIS current plan (if you can really call it one).

I hope that answers your question.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform

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Of course people are against THIS current plan, because this one doesn't include the public option. So its not relevant to the discussion on if people are in favor or against the public option. I've already said on more then one occasion that the reason his approval ratings are dropping is because he's backing away from the public option. His base is going to disaprove of his actions and click that they're against it on all those polls until he strongly backs it.

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Game, the polls have reflected these numbers since July, and the article I cited backs that up. Your gamesmanship when it comes to debate is not effective nor appreciated. It's what makes having any kind of respectful debate with you impossible at times.

At this point, I have to assume you are just willfully ignorant and refuse to acknowledge any reality outside of your worldview when it comes to health-care. Create whatever fiction you like, but I'll not continue to give you opportunities to spread them.

Babble to yourself if you like. I'm no longer listening.

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Yet you aren't argueing anything I said, and have no point.

When did the Dems start bending over for the GOP? I'm pretty sure that started earlier then July. Dems have been reaching out to the republicans for months now, just to never get one voice of support. And in your own mind you want to make it seem like the democrats were not playing ball with the republicans whatsoever.

Every legitamate poll made in the last year showed that american people and doctors are in favor of the idea of having both public and private health insurance. (Including that little poll that happend in 2008) The reason that less and less people are supporting the "reform" now is because dems have been watering down healthcare for months to try and appeal to republicans (or using the republicans as an excuse to water it down and appeal to the people who pay them). That's just the reality of the situation.

You never were listening, which is why we can't really have a debate. You spent a long time calling me out on racism, and I gave you a reply that took an objective look at the situation.. but you'd rather chose ignorance and not take into account anything that doesn't fit your own view.

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Ok I have not really kept up with what has been discussed so far but I just wanted to offer my opinion on the whole thing.

Bare in mind I am living in England and have had what I would call 'the luxury' of the National Health Service (NHS) my entire life. Despite all its misgivings it is a good thing.

This could only stand to benefit the US. Whatever the cost, in the long run it would be worth it, It will take substantial initial setup cost yes but then after that it will work itself out. The cost in tax that you pay will be far less that what you will pay for private medical insurance.

It's not good to have a situation for example like the one I witnessed in Germany. My colleuge had an epileptic fit and needed an ambulance and the paramedics would not take him because he did not have his medical insurance card.

Under a national health service this would not matter and the private hospital would be able to charge a national health hospital for services rendered so to speak.

I personally support President Obama in his pledge to reform health care and I sincerely hope it successfully integrates itself into US society. One day you will wonder what you would ever have done without it ;)

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The Senate Finance Committee rejected the public option today.

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Am I surprised? No.

Am I pissed? You bet your ass.

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A disappointing moral loss?

I haven't had time to follow this, but where will it go from here?

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I'm not suprised either. There needs to be reform to campaign financing before the public option would ever get passed. I'd be very shocked if it won out in the end.

Still a lot of discussing to be done. They're looking into ways to extend coverage and lower costs.. however, it looks like if there's no public option.. they're going to extend coverage and do nothing about costs.

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They couldn't convince the American people that their version of a government run healthcare would work, and then they couldn't even backdoor it in committee with a large majority (never mind the bill wouldn't pass if the amendment was attached).

Meanwhile, the progressive caucus is looking to destroy any bill that doesn't have government run healthcare included, and moderate democrats won't vote for any bill with government healthcare included.

Wow, with all this in-fighting you'd think they were the Republican party... and like with social security reform the likelihood is nothing will get accomplished if the current climate persists.