Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Justin, here's the thing, and maybe you have some source I don't know about, but after 4 years, how many people do you think are REALLY on the fence about buying a Wii, 360 or PS3?

This is what neither of you have been able to prove or disprove. You talk as if there is a collective of people, who are just waiting for the PS360 to gain motion controls, and there is a group of people who are waiting on an HD-enabled Wii.

But you know all of this talk is going no where fast, so I'll just put it out there for you and Typhoid and anyone else, but do any of you intend to actually pick up the Move?

And here's another piece wrote on another forum,

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

4 years ago the 360 didnt have the promise of the Natal, the PS3 didn't have a motion controller, and BLu Ray wasn't really off the ground as it is now.


False.
We are saying what if there are people who don't have any of these systems yet. Not that they were waiting for something specific, just that there MAY BE people on this planet who haven't been able to afford a system. Are we saying the motion controller is the breaking point? Fuck no. We're saying if these people who don't have systems yet want a system, Sony and Microsoft have taken away the only technological advantage the Wii had.

That. Is. What. We. Are. Saying.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Okay, I think Typhoid and I came to somewhat of an understanding over MSN, if not, I really don't want to continue down that road. My issue here, and its what I'm going back to is getting the Move into households/selling it.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

So...we can all agree Sony Move is going to fail, right? Is anybody going to bother actually arguing my point?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Holy shit people, we need a group hug.

For the record I think the anal wand and Natal are going to fail...and those games for Sony look like shit. I thought the Wii had some crap on it but damn.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Ok this is the first time I had time to watch the 'Move-ies.'
What can I say? The technology looks better than the Wii's. Which shouldn't be surprising with a 4 year's difference.

The software though... bleh. Shovelware BUT WITH GRAPHICS THIS TIME!!

I don't think these expansions will catch on. The Wii doesn't sell because of motion controls anymore, it sells because of its reputation. People won't want a copy-cat, they want the real deal. They want Miis, Wii Sports, white plastic.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Depends, what would you consider failure? How many sales would be a failure, how many would be questionable, and how many sales would be a sucsess? Lets be realistic here.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Obviously if it doesn't surpass the Wii in sales it's a complete and utter failure.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

If that's what's considered failure.. then I would bet every paycheck I have for the rest of the year that it'll fail. :lol:

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

You tell me. Do you think 20% uptake would be a success? Because that's about the best case scenario.

Or instead of sales, let's try this: if after a year publishers decide that it's not worth giving more than token support to Move, and if games designed to use Move slow down to a trickle of gimmick shovelware, would you consider that a success? Because that's what's going to happen.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Hey I asked first!

You tell me.. how many sales would it have to have for you to be like "wow I was wrong, it succeeded". If 20% uptake is your definition of sucsess, then I agree it will fail. 20% would mean it's have to sell around 7 million.

-EDIT-

And in case I read it wrong.. are you saying that if it continues to get support for more then a year it is a sucsess? I don't know, I'm trying not to put words in your mouth. How many sales and how long would it have to be supported for it to be a sucsess in your eyes?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

You mean sort of how no Wii really game successfully uses motion control aside from Wii Sports resort and maybe 10 other games, and the games released all have the option for GC controllers because that's what people would rather use?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

The first is only an opinion, which I disagree with.

The second is factually wrong, as there are only 40+ Wii games that offer any type of GameCube controller support, which is a very tiny %.

And here's the real kicker, to me anyhow, that is exactly why the Move will fail. The Cube controller is offered ONLY as an option in most of those games, and you claim people prefer it, now imagine the reverse. Where the "normal" controller is the standard one, and the motion one is offered as an option. How many developers will support it? How many will even come up with those "10 other Wii games" as you say.

And that's why the Move will fail, not just because its an add-on, but because from a business standpoint and from a gamer's standpoint, it doesn't make sense.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I think 20% by any standard is a failure. And I think the Move will be lucky if it even reaches that high. And neither you nor Typhoid have given any solid evidence or arguments to tell me why it will do any better than that.

I think Move will be a success when it's widely seen to be essential that every major game released on the PS3 must use it, whether that happens next year or three years from now. The reason I think Move will fail is because I think that will never happen. The only chance is for Sony to include Move 2 on the PS4. But right now, Move is going to fail by any reasonable standard you care to use.

Also, fix your damn spell check. Seeing "sucsess" repeatedly is getting on my nerves.

Nice try trolling me. And now that I know you can't even count, do you want to try to convince me that Sony Move will be used by even 20% of PS3 owners?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I meant to put 'prefer' in there.

Of the games that use motion control, please post a long list of games that are considered "Awesome games to have for motion control" that aren't the following:

Wii Sports/Resort
Any game with 'Wii' in the name
Mario Kart/Mario
Madworld

And of course there is a very tiny percentage of games that actually offer GC support. There are hundreds of nameless and faceless boxes of crap for the Wii that are made for toddlers. If you flood the market with crap, it will obviously change the ratios.

This is what I don't get. This view.

Wii Motion Control = great idea! Brilliant! Plan the parade route!
Sony Motion Control/Natal = Terrible idea. Won't work. Epic failure.


Edit:

Let's hold that tongue there, chap.

As I said to Bab, I meant to stick 'prefer' in there.
So it would be : "Of the games that are successful and use motion control (obviously aside from Mario Galaxy) how many opt for the GC controllers instead of Motion Support?"

Do you play Smash Bros with the wiimote? I, nor anyone I know sure doesn't. Do you use the Wiimote for racing on Mario Kart? I, nor anyone I know sure doesn't.

Thus was my point.

And you haven't given any solid evidence of why it will fail miserably.
This goes both ways.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I don't believe 20% would be a failure, but I also don't think it will reach 20%. So my your definition, I think that it will fail also. So we're in agreement on that much.

I don't think that will ever happen, but I also think that isn't the "goal".

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

What a load of shit.
Either you're actually trying to play stupid to get people angry, or it's just happening on it's own.


So in that sense the Wii is a total failure, because not every game strictly uses Motion Control.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

He's not saying that every game would need it.. just that every game would have some type of use for it. Like an option to play with it. I think a lot more games will support it then one would think. It wouldn't be hard for them to mock the controls for the sports game (for example) as an option.

Especially if Sony gives some incentive to do so. (by incentive, I mean money)

But I agree, that's setting expectations too high.. and that's not going to happen.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Really? You didn't see my other posts in this very thread explaining why the Move is going to fail? Are you by any chance functionally illiterate? Because, I mean, I'm sorry if you are. That's a terrible condition to have.

Otherwise, maybe you should go back and look again.

Oh by the way, I do in fact play Smash Bros with the Wiimote/Nunchuk combo. I played in BAB's tournament that way. I forget who I was playing against, but I don't think I did too badly. Nonetheless, that's neither here nor there.

First of all, the word "major" is key here. Again, I'm sorry if you're actually functionally illiterate, but I'm working on the assumption that you have a ninth grade education at the very least.

Also, the Wiimote is not an add-on to the Wii. Move, on the other hand, is. It has a much higher goal to reach before it can be considered a success.

Tell you what, though: you tell me what your standard is for Move to be considered a success or a failure. I guarantee Move will not meet it. You can save this post and come back to it a year from now if you like.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

You're really filling the void well, aren't you?
So because you say something, that makes it true?
Tell me, when will the world end?
When will the big earthquake in Vancouver happen?
I mean, you can clearly tell me something that hasnt happened yet will do horribly based on opinion alone, so I'd like to know these other things, too.
That would really help me out, thanks.

I find it hilarious that when you give an opinion of why something will do bad - it's factual. When me or Game do it, it's wrong - and we're not reading things properly and are completely illiterate.
Stop the dick waving contest. Nobody cares.
We're a small forum and there's no need to act like a fucking child on the internet. It's possible to have a conversation without talking down to other people. I hope for the sake of people you know in real life that you're well aware of that.
See, I can do it too. It clearly doesn't take someone literate or competent.

Maybe I'll chalk it up to you being a child.
Maybe I can chalk it up to some type of brain injury you got when your father was beating your mother during pregnancy.
Maybe you have a small penis and compensate for it by telling other people over the internet that they aren't smart because their opinion of a video game is different than yours.
I wish we were all as awesome and tough as you are.
See what I mean - conversation with insults gets nowhere.
Let it the fuck go.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Ok fine, here it is for the third time.

Sony Move is an add-on peripheral.

In all the history of videogames, an add-on has never caught on.

As you would have figured out if you had read my past posts. Manasecret got it. Angrist got it. Justin got it. Why can't you?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

If I recall Playstation was spawned as an add-on of the SNES.
I wonder how that company is doing now. :ohreilly:


My point is this:

Just because one hasn't caught on in the past, doesn't mean it will never happen.
Will it happen now? I don't know. I'm not clairvoyant. And frankly I have no stake in the company so I don't care.

What I've been saying is this is taking away the single thing that made the Wii unique. Aside from titles of Mario and Zelda and various "____ Wii" games, after the SMC and Natal are released, Nintendo will be an inferior machine.

Will it still sell? Of course it will.

But Sony and Microsoft have added 2 more options on the market, despite being add-ons.
Before if you wanted to get your kid some motion control thing, you'd HAVE to get the Wii, even if your kid somehow has a PS3 and a 360.

So instead of getting an entirely new system, they can just get one of the add-ons.

You'd (general, not specific you) be insane to think that Sony won't make Wii-esque games to ride the coattails of the popularity of casual gaming, which then just blurs the lines a little more.

Will it catch on with a flaming heat never seen before? Of course not.
But will the motion controller and Natal completely fall by the wayside? Fuck no, that's the 'wave of the future' as it is.

If anything all this does is make the market more competative, and force companies to actually make good games that use motion control because there is more than 1 option, so it's not a sure-fire sell anymore.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

As a note, can we calm down on the personal insults. Yes, I'm guilty of it as well, but I guess what happens when people have somewhat of a passion of what talking about.

Well now you are just limiting things.
But let's see from what I've played
No More Heroes 1/2
Medal of Honor Heroes 2
The Conduit (you said where the controls are better, not necessarily a great game)
World of Goo
Swords and Soldiers
Lost Winds
Metroid Prime Trilogy/Corruption
House of the Dead: Overkill
Tiger Woods
Boom Blox/Boom Blox Party
Rayman Raving Rabbids
EA Sports Active

This is where comprehension comes in.

I have never said that Move/Natal are terrible ideas, I mean not to my knowledge, sure someone can dig up an old quote.

I don't think Move/Natal are terrible ideas

I don't think they won't work

I do think that they have to overcome that hurdle the Wii is built on motion, the controller is given as an option in few games

As you say, everyone you knows prefers the controller, how would it be different w/ the Natal/Move?


In terms of success/failure for Move/Natal, as much as I follow the industry, I'm not really sure which measurement is suitable. I mean the devices will sell, there's no question about that, and there will be games, but it won't topple the world, I guess.

Here are the basic troubles that Natal/Move has to overcome
1) Developer's support, right now the 360 and Ps3 sit at around 39 and 31 million consoles sold apiece, why would you negate that HUGE pool of gamers for a device that currently has 0 users.

2) Gamer's support
As Typhoid pointed out, he prefers his games with a normal controller, I'm sure there are a TON of gamers who follow that, and if not, there's always the "if it isn't broken why fix mentality" I mean I get along perfectly fine with my Sixaxis and Xbox controller. I don't see a need to invest in more hardware when I can play pretty much what I want now.

On the other end of the spectrum, the so-called "casual" gamers have made the Wii their home. As they have shown or at least evidence would point towards, they don't care much for graphics, and decent online implementations is good enough for them, so it really negates any advantages that they other two would have in converting them.

3) Time frame, both of these are coming out late in their respective consoles life-span. Honestly, the story of this generation has been written, and I don't see much changing.

4) Games
At the end of the day, what it comes down to.
And I don't know how to phrase this, but most games have their audiences by now, a new Metal Gear or Final Fantasy or Halo or Resistance or Uncharted or Gears or Fable with motion controls really would help shift focus, as those games have their audiences and you would only be grabbing a small subset of them with it.
Casual game market is pretty much cornered between the Wii and the PC. So you may get some stragglers, but not much else.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

It's not my fault that Typhoid is incapable of reading and understanding past posts in this thread. If you have a problem with my pointing that out, ban me.

Anyway, once again, Typhoid misses the point, refuses to provide any evidence or a semblance of an argument, and then goes off on a tangent.

I rest my case.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Back to the insults, eh?
Well at least you lasted a solid 1 post.
I'm proud of you.

.....How is stating my point a tangent?

That's been my point the entire time.
My point has never been the success, nor the failure.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Sorry Xantar, I concede.
You know far more about Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft than I - a mere pleb can ever hope to imagine.

How I manage to type words when I'm randomly smacking the keyboard with my fists amazes even I.

Hell, I'm even amazed I remember to breathe with such an inferior intellect and such a smaller penis than a man as great as you.


It's the internet. Get over yourself.
Reply if your massive throbbing cock feels the need - but I won't read it.
And in lieu of 'abusing my moderator powers', I'm not locking the thread - since I know you probably won't be able to resist posting back to this despite the fact I'm not going to read it.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Then you never had any point to make to me. The only point I was trying to make -- the ONLY one -- was this

That's it. Whatever argument you have going on with BAB or anybody else is tangential because the only thing I was trying to say was that from the point of view of sales, business or any other standard you choose, Move is going to fail. It's not going to sell. Most people are not going to buy it. I'm sorry you decided to read way more into it than was actually right there on the screen, but that wasn't my problem.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I look at the move like the original Xbox.. Xbox got out sold 5:1 by Ps2, and did not turn a profit. But I still consider it a sucsess. Why? Because it did what M$ wanted it to do, get their foot in the door of the gaming industry, and kept enough support to hold the system up for 4 years.

The Ps360 motion controls are the same way. It's a gamble. I'm sure Microsoft and Sony are well versed in the history of the gaming industry, and they know that these add-ons are not going to become something that's essential for the system..

With that said, for me there's a LOT of grey area as far as sucsess and failure.

I'd say if the motion controls sell less then 2 million, then it's a failure without question. Anything more, then it's sucsess will be defined by how much the controls are supported and how long, and if there's some type of swing in month to month sales of Ps360s vs Wii. I think having the option of the controls could impact sales more then the unit will sell itself.

So I'm in the same boat if you don't think these motion controls will be the next big thing.. but I do think they could swing some sales, and that there's a good chance that Sony and Microsoft set realistic expectations for these units.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

There are two ways to succeed or fail here -- 1. In sales/profitibility, and 2. What Game touched on, future success, or PS4 and Xbox720 success.

In terms of sales/profitability, I think almost everyone agrees that they will fail miserably. Off the top of my head, I would guess 2-4 million sold each over the next 2-3 years.

But in terms of future success, I think releasing the Move and Natal now are probably the best decision. Sony and MS can get their feet wet with an add-on that will last a couple years at most, and work out any kinks before they release an entire new system that they will have to work with for some 10 years. As they say, every failure is a success in some way, since at the very least you have learned lessons along the way that will help you in the future.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Well, it's not just the fact that it's a peripheral that will make it more difficult. It's the fact that it's an expensive perpipheral. The last blurb I read put the starter kit at $100.

I personally doubt Sony can market it, but I've seen stranger things happen.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I guess I'll play Devil's Advocate here since this isn't a pro/anti-Nintendo thread ;)

But on the flip side, which few people are looking at I guess, and it may just be a minor point, but Sony and Microsoft can both find that maybe motion controls don't work for them.

I mean motion controls has a bad rep as it is from all the shovelware on the Wii, and if they find that many 3rd parties won't support it or they may not sell well, it could be like the EyeToy from last gen where its out there, but its really low key and under the table.

Again, its a minor thought, but could happen.

On a somewhat happier note,



I love these PS3 commercials so much. :lol:

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

That's launch price though.
Everything is more expensive at launch...typically.
However, I don't find $100 too bad. When it comes out, I'll buy it.
A Wii is what, 130 bucks? I bought that and I never play it.
Considering games are 65-80 bucks these days, 100 isn't really a huge deal.


The reason I like the move, as I've been talking to Bab about; is that it looks really good. Game-wise. There is potential for really visually pleasing FPS', that are fun at the same time where you're not just twiddling your thumbs.
And it also has potential for more casual games that don't look like they're intended for 4 year olds.

Lots of families have a PS3 already because of the built in blu-ray, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that they'd spend an extra 100 bucks to entertain their 6-10 year old kids. Same as I don't think it's a stretch that a college kid who miraculously has 'extra' money will buy it for drinking games, or playing FPS'.

It won't sell like wildfire, and it won't change the industry.
But it will be as fun as the wii, and look good while doing it.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

TheGame:

I don't think your Xbox comparison is apt, though. The Xbox was an entire console. Move is a peripheral added on four years into the life cycle.

Moreover, you're talking about cross generational success. You argue that the Xbox was a success in the sense that it got the brand name out there and allowed Microsoft to have a successful and almost-profitable Xbox 360 (I say "almost" because apparently the Red Ring of Death ate up nearly all the profit Microsoft could have gotten).

What I'm saying is that Move will fail in this generation. I don't discount the possibility that Move 2 will be widely adopted when it launches on the PS4.

Now here's where I think we really disagree: if I understand you correctly, you're saying that by launching Move on the PS3, Sony makes it more likely that Move 2 will be widely adopted on the PS4. I disagree. I think Move 2 will be fine if it comes standard with the console and if the technology works well, but it will do so on its own merits. I think that by the time the PS4 launches, the original Move will be largely forgotten. Keep in mind here that Sony says they will be launching the PS4 five years from now. By that time, Move will have already failed to sell any appreciable numbers and be widely deemed as a copycat gimmick that didn't catch on. The empirical numbers don't lie. The most successful peripheral of all time is probably the Wii Balance Board which only a third of Wii users purchased at most. And Move is not going to be as successful as the Balance Board.

Also, I just want to make one other minor point:

I'm not going to address Microsoft at the moment because we still don't know important details about Natal (like its price and launch software), but I don't have as much faith as you that Sony "set realistic expectations" for anything. We're talking about the company who thought it would be a good idea to sell a console for almost $700 and make it obscenely difficult to develop for. And then have the creator come out saying that the PS3 is so great that people would be willing to take out a second mortgage in order to own one. I'm just saying their foresight hasn't been the greatest.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

No peripheral has ever sold well. Forget "selling like wildfire." No peripheral has ever sold well. Period. And this is an expensive peripheral.

The best response you've got to that is "I think the Move is neat-o and it's not that hard for me to imagine families spending an extra $100 on a console they already spent $500 on"? Really?

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

This is how I feel, but I'll elaborate.

The Move will be cool, but current games will not support it, and going forward it's going to be all about developer support. And even that breaks down into development cost and how good the toolkits and drivers are. Sony needs to provide tools so that motion detection can be ported from console to console.

Anyway, work is over and I need to finish some things up but I'll finish this later.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

This is a question that I think affects the debate.

When do people here predict the next consoles will start coming out?

I hear that Sony and MS are saying another five years or some such long time, but rumor is that the new Wii will come out 2012.

I think if Wii does come out in 2012, Sony and MS will be forced to come out with something soon after, no later that 2013 (or a year later).

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I don't want to talk Natal too much, because we haven't really seen working software yet, but if what I'm hearing is true, its nothing more than an attempt to capture the casual audience.

The simple fact is both of these devices are simple stop gaps to prolong the normal duration of this generation. I mean if you think about it, the 360 would be 5 this year and that's generally when a new console would be expected to debut, but as I've stated in the past, all 3 companies are in a position where it makes no sense to jump ahead.

Wii- Nintendo has captured an audience they have never seen before, and most be careful with their next console. They can't afford to make it too expensive, but on the same hand must have it compete on a technical level and offer something that makes a Wii owner want to upgrade.

360- The 360 has a stellar line-up and the best 3rd party support of all the consoles. MS is not guaranteed the same type of success at the start of the next gen especially...

Ps3- Sony and its developers are finally coming to terms with the hardware, not only are they making great looking games, but original games at that. They are finally picking up momentum, and on a global basis either outsells or is pretty damn close to the Xbox.

My guess is that after the motion control stop gap ends, all companies will be ready to roll with something in 2012.

Also quote from Sega PR on Natal/Move

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

That's a good question, it has also been on the back of my mind in this thread.

I think this Generation will be longer then what we're used to, because nobody really failed bad enough to want it to end quickly.

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

Wow, finally some good old GameTavern discussions!! :D

I think Reggie said 'Nintendo will make a new console when Miyamoto needs one to make his games.'
Although he makes a good point, it sounds pretty arrogant. As if Miyamoto's the only guy who makes good games at Nintendo...

Re: Sony Motion Controller
 

I don't know about him being the only good one to make them.. but his finger prints being on a game sure does increase the chances of it selling. :P

But anyway, I don't think this generation is ending any time soon. I expect Ps3 and X360 to be $150 before it ends.. And I expect the next gen consoles to be $299 at launch. I think this gen still has a good 60-100 million hardware sales left in it.