Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I don't get it. Everyone hated the GBA/Gamecube connectivity and now several years later they do the same thing and everyone loves it? Well ok...

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

The difference, IMO, is that the connectivity is an integral part of the console. Its integrated directly into the console's controller. You don't have to buy a separate handheld and special cables to get it going. Also, since it is an integral part of the console, hopefully it will be used more and in more exciting ways than the GBA/GCN connectivity was.

Its all in the execution and the potential.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I just bought Crysis 2 five days ago and was very happy to find out that my two years graphics card (Radeon HD 4890) can handle the game on high settings and true 1080. The Wii U's gpu is supposedly based on a newer, better gpu so I don't share your worries, guys. Also, I'm reading too many things based on speculation and stated as facts in this thread. Paying less? Current generation graphics? Nintendo just teased us. They didn't even mention a price range or specs. And the only two demos were a bird flying around and a Zelda fight scene running in real time with the user changing the lighting and moving the camera. I don't think either of them had too much time put into them. If it only runs in true 1080 then the system is already doing better than current generation consoles. I think some people were just expecting a 12 core processor, 8GB of ram, Either a 580 or 6970 for gpu and more flashy specs. But then if Nintendo delivered that, who knows.... they might be upset about the price, like many were with the PS3. I don't care so much about graphics anymore, it all looks just as good to me now. I'm glad Nintendo is trying to find a way to expand games rather than just with specs. And the ideas looked interesting.

Now... the real question that everyone should be asking themselves: How much is that freaking controller going to cost?:confused:

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I don't see any reason this won't be able to run FPS' just as good as any other machine.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Yeah we already have, what 3-4 of them announced? And several big name ones, has to best the Wii already.



And here's a TPS being played on the console

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Okay, I finally got around to watching the conference.

Holy crap, I can't believe some people were complaining and not impressed by this. I think that my statement that Nintendo would dominate Sony and Microsoft has absolutely come true.

They showed so much footage of what the controller/console could do. The ability for the console to stream the content to the controller screen was enough alone to blow me away - but there were so many other ways that they could interact. Then they ran through all the promised third party games, and announced a Smash Bros for 3DS & Wii U...

Yeah, the Nintendo conference made this E3 not suck. I'm ready to buy this thing right now. :)

edit: That video looks great. I can think of so many great uses for the controller screen. It looks like the guy in the video used it as a heli-cam to check out the enemies location before moving in. Could also use it to navigate a robot bomb.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

So the new Nintendo system will be called the Wii U. I'll have to agree that it's not the best name in the world, but of course, as long as it has games that I'd want, I won't mind having one. Though I must say, that controller is a behemoth. The lack of backwards compatibility for GameCube games isn't really a problem for me though (if it does lack that kind of backwards compatibility), since I still have my GameCube hooked up, and that's all because I have a Game Boy Player.

I have to admit though, that I'm a bit concerned about Nintendo jumping right into the next generation before their competitors. I think this is more or less a first for them. They usually wait for their competitors to make the first move, and then put out a new system later that's somewhat of an improvement over its predecessor(s). They might end up pushing back the release of the Wii U from 2012, and I think I'd actually be okay with that.

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is now being pushed towards a holiday release for this year. Fine with me. The less I punish my wallet, the better. Though I hope it doesn't get pushed back farther than that, or just saved for a Wii U release.

So, one of the big surprises for the 25th anniversary of The Legend of Zelda is a free soundtrack CD that I can only get by registering a copy of Ocarina of Time 3D, but I can just pass on that. I've already imported the Ocarina of Time (N64 of course) soundtrack from Japan, and it's a complete soundtrack, which I'm concerned the free one probably won't be. Plus I still don't have a 3DS, nor do I see myself having one any time this year. Though I am interested in that CD based on the Zelda 25th Anniversary symphony concerts which was said to be released in conjunction with Skyward Sword. At least I've got the system to play that (I think, I hope).

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I'd actually be surprised if there isn't backwards compatibility with the Gamecube. The Wii basically is the Gamecube in a new box, which is why it could do backwards compatibility on hardware. If the Wii U is backwards compatible with the Wii, I see no reason why it shouldn't support the Gamecube as well, unless they do software emulation.

In all honesty, the backwards compatibility concerns me that the hardware in this thing really is pretty lackluster. Also not announcing the specs makes me think they are hiding something, and I fully expect they are.

Overall, not impressed at all with the Wii U at the moment.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

The gameplay that's being shown looks good enough for me. If I can play Zelda, Mario, etc, and have it look like that, I'll be satisfied. As long as it's hitting that HD resolution.

I imagine the next generation of consoles is going to be much like this one for me: get the Wii U and the next Xbox. Only this time I think I'm actually going to play the Wii.

edit: It looks like the Wii U will not have upscaling. Damn.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Yeah, that was disappointing. I was really looking forward to that as I wanted to see some of the current games running in 1080. I hope they change that before it comes out.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Does anyone have a theory as to why the new console won't upscale? Is it a technically difficult task to perform?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I'm no expert, but I thought the process of upscaling was a simple algorithm of taking two pixels and averaging them out and putting another pixel in between.

The really cynical side of me wants to say that it's because they want to resell HD versions of old Wii games. >_>

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Being BC didn't stop em from re-selling Pikmin and other games.

And sadly HD remakes seem to be the in-thing now. I think the movement is awful, but people get excited for it. Meh

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I am pretty impressed with everything overall. Just the fact that nintendo is finally going HD is great, although I guess they pretty much have to now. Zelda demo looks impressive. And I am liking how skyward sword seems to be shaping up also.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

That is the simplest algorithm (once extended to 2D), but the ones actually used are a bit more complicated. But most likely they would upscale in hardware, and not software.

But in all reality, if you're playing on a fixed-resolution display (any non-CRT basically), your TV will be upscaling the image anyway. Why it's not doing it is beyond me, but it's not like an upscaled Wii game is going to magically look better.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

What about those emulated Wii games that look 2x better?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I didn't even know there was a Wii emulator. But it doesn't really matter. It's impossible, now, and forever in the future, to upscale an image and make it "better".

Take the example of a 4x4 square, make it a black and white checkerboard. To reduce that down to a single pixel you would all expect the colors to average out to some shade of gray. Now let's go the other way, start with a single gray pixel and upscale it to 4x4. What does it look like? Is it four gray pixels? Our black and white checkerboard? Any other of the many combinations of 4 pixels which average to the exact same color? It's impossible to tell.

Now, I won't say there aren't some really good ways to guess. Photoshop CS5 has a fantastic tool which can do just that, but it's still a complete guess. Those tend to take a much larger area and assume things. For example, if the entire bottom of the image is covered in this green stuff, then maybe the big hole you are trying to fill should contain similar shades and patterns, etc. The problem is these all break down in certain cases, and there is no generic algorithm that works perfectly.

The problem is when you go up in resolution you should increase the detail, and while you can guess at the missing colors, you can never add the detail which would be missing. If there was a human arm, you may be able to guess at the proper skin tone in the missing pixels, but you will never get the pores, or the hairs. Or think about all the small detail which would be seen in a 1080p picture of concrete, you maybe can match color, but going from 640x480 to 1920x1080 is never going to get you that detail, no matter how hard you try.

Now, my best guess as to why the Wii emulator looks better is post-processing of the scene. I would assume they perform some form of aliasing to reduce the jaggies on the image and make everything look smoother. Besides, your eyes can play tricks on you. It's the reason why screens in retail are so bright, because people think they look better and it sells TVs. It's the same reason why volume is used to sell speakers, because if they are the loudest in the store, they must be the best. Look at the images closely and you will most likely they are the exact same, if not a bit smoother (AA as I said before). But no matter how hard you try, you can't add detail.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Your first sentence is the problem. Games don't just consist of a series of images any more. They're a composite of rendered structures (polygonal models) with images applied to them (textures).

It's only the textures that need scaling. The Wii Emulator actually renders the scene in HD (Anti-Aliasing is also offered) and scales the textures. There's no reason the WiiU couldn't do the same thing, unless it's just got a Wii SoC and it's doing hardware emulation. Regardless, somebody's going to break this thing for homebrew and then somebody's going to port Dolphin over and that will be the end of it.



Semi-Related: Depixelizing Pixel Art - A new way to scale sprites really well.
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/...kopf/pixelart/

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In the end, though, it just comes down to money. Nintendo wants to continue selling Wii's through the WiiU's life cycle. It's the same reason they aren't doing Gamecube emulation. It has nothing to do with what the system can do, and everything to do with them wanting you to either buy the games for Wii, or buy an HD remake.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Wow, so they are trying to hook the calls to the graphics API and render it to a larger viewport? That would be possible, similar to DLL hooking. However, even doing that would either warp the image or you would be restricted to a uniform scale. Not sure how you would adjust the aspect ratio unless you tried to decompose the projection matrix and adjust the aspect ratio.

Regardless, I think you're forgetting that rendering at a different resolution isn't that easy. Well, it is as easy as adjusting the viewport and projection matrices, but you can't just do it automatically to existing games and expect it to work. Changing the resolution can cause many rendering artifacts with shadow mapping and others, as well as completely break any code which may be processing a full-screen texture on the CPU side. Artifacts may be acceptable for an illegal emulator, but I would imagine Nintendo wants to get these games to run as close to the original as possible.

I'm by no means an expert on what's possible to do with emulation, but I can't see this being possible for all cases. I imagine it's a bit easier since the Wii is fixed-function, but it seems way too easy to break.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

While I sort of like the idea of the whole....ipad-controller-thing, I think it says a lot when their stock immediately dropped to a 5 year low or something hilarious like that.

Anyways, I think this will be what ruins Nintendo. To oversimplify it, it's sort of just a tablet you use in conjunction with your 'Wii'.

And I'm pretty sure Sony/Microsoft have tablets (If they don't, they should?), so it wouldn't be hard, or needlessly expensive for them to easily phase Nintendo out on this, aswell - just like they slowly tried to do with motion-gaming.

It seems like Nintendo is struggling for fringe ideas to sell consoles, but is sort of totally backing themselves into a corner as they do it. Since the other systems are making super-powerful systems, and simply biting off the gimmicks Nintendo brings, they'll no doubt continue to do this until even a new Nintendo system is immediately obsolete and a generation behind.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Do you really think that?

Nintendo is building the whole console around this concept, and that's why it will work.
Sure, MS/Sony could launch some feature that lets you use a tablet. But it will just be another feature that nobody will use. Like the SIXAXIS. Or the Move. Like the AGB/GCN connectivity. If they're very lucky, in 4 years they'll have something that is as succesful as Kinect.

In fact, with the presentation of the PS3 (E3 2006?) Sony already showed you can use the PSP as a second screen for your PS3. Remember they used it as a rear mirror for some racing game? So the idea of a second, portable screen is quite old. Guess what, nobody used it. People have forgotten about it. Not because the idea wasn't good, but because it was poorly executed.

Now Nintendo has this great plan, has gotten developers on board and everybody is full of ideas. There's no way MS/Sony will catch up with them within 3 years. And when they do, it will just be another expansion... And the only expansion we've ever seen work is Kinect, and even that is very controversial.

I personally think that the graphical leap between this and the next gen will be smaller, or at least not so important. Yes, even if Wii U isn't (much) stronger than the PS360 (and we don't know that yet), the PS4/3602 will outclass it. But do you really think that's going to stop Nintendo and 3rd parties from making a load of awesome games?

We can bet it won't be as bad as Wii.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I do think it is odd that Nintendo is releasing a "catch-up" console at a sort of weird time so they can finally have HD graphics and the processing power to port/share 360 and PS3 games. It makes you wonder when Sony and Microsoft will unveil their next big things, and how much ahead they will be when they do.

We are going to need to see official specs....also, this new console hangs 100% on the success of online gaming. And, an added consideration is the fact that you will likely only be able to sync one of these tablets up to your Wii-U due to processing power limitations.

I still like the tech and think it has big potential, so I look forward to hearing news and the progression of this thing.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I would point out that, a 5 year low would mean the last time it was this low was after the reveal of the Wii, and we saw how that worked out.

And I believe historically, it has fallen after the reveal of the DS as well.
I've seen it described on a podcast as the "console without an audience."
And I can kind of see that belief.
On paper, it isn't as simple and inviting as the Wii-mote was.
And it isn't a simple revision on the standard idea of a console for the "hardcore"
So its a console that tries to appease all, but really doesn't appeal to anyone in its current form.

I think as we get closer to launch and see key software and stuff, it will be easier to tell.
I mean even with the simplicity of the Wii controllers, if not for Wii Sports it would have never taken off the way that it did.
All they need is a solid software idea behind them.

And to answer your question, I'm fairly certain that neither MS nor Sony are in the tablet business ATM. Though Sony has comparable tech when you combine the PS3/PS Vita usage.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

The 52WK range for Nintendo's stock (trading on the Tokyo Stock Exchange) is: 15,790 - 29,300 (in yens, of course). Current price of the stock is 16,390. So, in roughly a little over twelve months the stock has dropped by half.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=TYO:7974

Hard to say if that drop is directly or indirectly attributable to much of anything, but it is quite a drop.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

There are a ton of simple factors really
-The Wii has been in a steep decline for a while now. Sales are generally buoyed by the holidays and the occasional major release.
-The 3DS has had a less than spectacular launch reception. Selling under anticipation for the first 2-3 months.
-No major software released this year on either of their major consoles. Though they had Pokemon Black/White

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Really?
You don't think MS or Sony can make their new system (or port to a PS3/360, I suppose) compatable with a tablet - which everyone is all the rage about these days - meaning a lot of companies are probably already looking into ways to utilize a tablet in the best way for them - and you don't think they can do that in 3 years? :confused:


And this isn't like motion sensing, really. Because I'm sure a lot of the reason behind MS and Sony not doing it sooner is because they wanted to see how much demand their was for what types of motion games to even see if it's worth it.

With this tablet/system meshing thing, I'm not saying it's a bad idea. In fact I think it's a really cool idea if utilized properly. Seems really futuristic to me. All I was saying is that it is becoming easier and easier for Sony and Nintendo to slowly push Nintendo out of the majority of the market by taking their ideas, and utilizing them with their systems' power.

And in fact, both Sony and Microsoft already have tablets either in the market, or currently in development - and I'm pretty sure that (if demand is high enough) they could easily port to their current systems respectively, or include it (as they could with motion sensing) in their next console.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Perhaps, but all of those tidbits could have already been factored into the stock price at that point in time ... it's a little more complicated.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

So apparently developers are saying the Wii U is 50% stronger than PS360.

Your thoughts?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Haven't really followed the Wii U stuff as it didn't get me that excited. Here are a few of my opinions.

Nintendo are still aiming for the casual, or to be more precise, the casual-hardcore market. The under-16 age group, the group that wants to play the serious games they're older brothers are playing, but still also have a part of them that are wowed by gimmicks; and the over 50 group, who look for that pick-up-and-play factor.

If you're a serious gamer, then you're looking for pure gaming. Not "let me press this button on my touchscreen and hide my character behind the bushes" or "another waggle of the controller will win me the game!".

I believe the correct way would've been what Sony is doing. Make the gimmick optional. Don't build everything around it.

And the fact that this mid-gen console is a next-gen release is another problem.

In a few years, we'll be seeing ports of last-wave PS3 and Xbox 360 (or "optimized" PS4 and Xbox 720) games, with "waggle-quality" tablet features. This is the optimistic option.

The pessimistic option will be what the Gamecube turned into.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong but, hasn't Nintendo been saying that they have "strong 3rd party support" in every new console announcement since the N64 lost it's 3rd party support?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Please... PS3 and X360 are for casual, wannabe gamers. True hardcore gamers who are "serious" and "looking for pure gaming" play on the PC.

/sarcasm

The casual vs. hardcore gamers is endlessly brought out by elitist gamers as if it's a good argument.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Which developers? I haven't seen this news.

Yes they have. People also tend to forget that while Gamecube had many 3rd party titles, many of those games were simply better on other platforms. PS3 had memory cards big enough to hold your Madden save, Xbox had a hard drive, better online, and the best graphics. It's the same thing with the Wii, are you really happy getting a COD4 port when everyone else is getting the sequel? Xbox owners are getting all COD DLC first, and they are playing on Live. The Wii may have it on paper, but you're using friend codes. Is that still considered "strong" 3rd party support?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I think the difference between the Wii and Wii U (can't speak of the Cube yet since we don't know the PS4/Xbox 3 stance) is that Nintendo is showing it up front.

Granted, all we got so far are a handful of ports, but they are getting titles that have never graced a Nintendo console like Tekken, Assassin's Creed, they are getting an enhanced version of Ninja Gaiden 3.

Then there is the middleware, we already know that the console will be supported by Unreal Engine 3, Crytek CryEngine 3, whatever Ubisoft calls their Assassin's Creed engine, and all signs point to it being supported by the Frostbite 3 engine.

So even when the PS4/xbox 3 comes out, developers will have the tools in place to continue supporting it even if just with down ports.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

To be honest, when I say casual and hardcore, I really mean the people who played games in the N64/PSX era, or started playing after that. The Gamecube kinda split the community when it got labeled as "kiddy", and I think gave birth to the gamer we now call "casual". Then with the Wii, gaming became a pastime for (almost) everybody who could hold a remote, and thus the profile of games changed.

Nintendo are trying to introduce it's Wii playing population to the other side of gaming, and trying to win them over with what got them hooked on the Wii in the first place - a gimmick.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Well, historically I would agree. With each passing generation Nintendo has crippled the system in some fashion that makes 3rd party devs jump ship. With the N64 it was expensive cartridges and complex programming requirements. With the Gamecube it was 1.5 GB discs, lack of storage, Friend codes, and a purple case. The Wii didn't go HD and never had a high quality, dedicated core controller.

I can't say it will be different this time. But the bottom line is that Nintendo has addressed most of the key problem areas. Friend Codes are going away for a new Online service more in line with Live. The graphics are HD, though we have yet to see specs. Supposedly it's heavy on the RAM, which is something devs will love.

My biggest concern at this point is the lack of a core dedicated controller. I'm looking for something wireless, in between the Gamecube and classic controller.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Why would you want another controller? You're afraid the U Pad will be too heavy or something?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Supposedly it's rocking the last gen Radeon card for the GPU, which can mean anything really if it's supposedly better than the PS3 or Xbox 360 (although I don't think we've found out for sure by how much).

I'm also concerned that it seems to have only the proprietary video out and HDMI out, but what about people like me that don't have HDMI receivers and they need a fiber optic cable for surround sound?

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

I just think it's cumbersome. Even though it will probably be fine for a lot of games, I just don't see myself wanting to use it all of the time.

The other issue is that we don't know how many of the tablet controllers can be simultaneously connected to the WiiU. I'm not willing to put up with dongling a classic controller to a Wiimote every time I want to play a multiplayer game. And that will be your only choice, since you don't even have the option of using a Gamecube controller.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

If you can only use one at once, I imagine the "standard" controller will be one you can purchase that is the same except without the screen in the middle.

Developers will need to develop around the Wii U controller's layout because that's what comes with the system.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

Right now the streaming to a single controller is my biggest pet peeve with the console really.

I'm curious though if gamers are willing to take a hit in graphics to achieve 4 player streaming content.

That said, it seems currently Nintendo is positioning this as a one Wii U tab, 4 Wii-Mote controller set-up. Which has potential, but really I think 4 Wii Us has to be done at some point.

Re: Nintendo at E3 2011
 

That's what I'm envisioning as well. But Nintendo's been mum on the topic, so I think it's worth a mention as a potential problem.