Hmm... let's see. The US defeaed the Taliban, and the al Qaeda members ran into Pakistan and are hiding. Now Afghanistan has a new government in place, and we're just around for mostly humanitarian crap. Not something to put in the news, just someone for the damn liberals to ramble on about.

You know, the war with Germany isn't on TV either. Oh ya, we helped establish new governments, and now the country can operate just fine on its own.

You forgot to mention one thing, Guerilla warfare, Afghans aren't that soft a group to allow Americans to roam about, just look at the history of the country. Read the news about what really is happening there, and not just the censored news you listen to.

:rolleyes:

Even in the Jang newspaper [Pakistani newspaper] which is normally censored to a large extent carried many reports of what is really happening in Afghanistan. But it's funny, these reports never tend to be reported out here.

Oh no, there's still armed people in Afghanistan. Please, cry me a river.

The US fought against the Taliban, the Afghan government. They took them out of power, and they established a new government. Afghanistan has guerillas, oh no, whoopie! Welcome to the middle east!

Pakistan covers Afghanistan news, I never would've guessed. I mean, they're only right next to each other, and terrorists must get their news. I mean, what would bin Laden do without his trusty Jang? He would feel so out of touch.

Guess what? News on Pakistan's economy and crime doesn't make it over here either. You know why? IT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO ANYONE OUTSIDE THE REGION! But I guess it's asking too much to expect you, of all people, to understand that.

Poor Soul, Another victim of American propaganda.

Please read up on the issues, and if you dont believe in them, up to you.

hehe

capitalism all the way huh?

North American lifestyle is certainly not an example of living for the rest of the planet. If the entire world population would be living like we are doing here in north america, it would take 5 planet earth to supply us. Yes we might be better than some others, but we are far from perfect, and we should try to fix our own problems before solving everybody else's problems.

You know what the problem is? You're a complete idiot, reading news from Pakistan, now running your little terrorist cell from Europe.

Do the world a favor, shut up.

Calm down...

You're getting completely off-topic and turning a debate into a "My display of the various reasons why many hate the 'average American citizen', parade".


To utilize the timeline:

First, Ranzid gave naive, but appropriate opinion. Then, Joeiss returned with a reasonable reply using a bit of facts and some opinion. Buuut, then came Gekko with his off-topic outburst toward an opposing opinion.

Come on now, debates are supposed to get heated, but all respect and validity seem to be lost when one steps over that line.


But, to give my own replies:

1)
Joiess' response was quite true, but I originally was thinking of... the irrelivance. It's not like the statement I highlighted was claiming that any act of war is honorable. Rather, it was showing how; before Hitler was "too big of a threat"; Europe chose not to act upon the actions of the Nazis immediately, and therefor received a dishonorable aura surrounding their nations for a period of time in exchange.

The United States too, however, chose the dishonor of remaining in isolationism. That is, until they were bombed and ol' Roosevelt dropped the bomb in retaliation. Did he think about it? I'd assume so... Why, the threat was immediate. No longer could the States hide from the rest of the world... and he felt they had to act fast.

I think the decision could have been better... but I can't blame the President; it got the job done. Civilians died, women and children too... but not much more happened afterward. While it was not an honorable choice (he definatley wouldn't be a candidate of mine for a medale), I would not see it as a dishonorable act.


2)

Y'know... I was wondering the same thing. According to what us Americans saw, we just went over, blasted a few rocks and "accidently" a few Canadians, and then all was over and Taliban was crushed under the iron fist of justice. Bah, it couldn't have been that easy. I can't tell why the media is spilling too many plans over the radio waves at one moment... and not willing to share the rest at another.

The media goes crazy with this new "War". It's not just a "war on terrorism"... no, it's a true war this time. I guess it just produces higher ratings than what really happened over in the land of Afghan. *scratches his head* And why, oh why are they reporting such information as the weaponry we plan on using, the location of assumed hidden Iraqi armory, and the alleged attack coordination. I've read up and heard the term "Freedom of the Press" time and time again, but this is a wee bit much.

Then, on the contrary, very little information is given about what happened in the past. Heh, I never thought it'd happen, but the name "bin Laden" has vanished from American Broadcast. I dunno, maybe to find the truth, one must order Al-Jazeera (or the many other translated names of it).


and


Yes... there's already plenty negative thoughts toward American military and politics. Whether or not the States "saved" Afghanistan from the Taliban, I'm sure less than half (and yes, I'm being generous in my assumptions) would want an American militant anywhere near his or her home over in the Middle-East. More reason why I want more than just the Yuppies over at CNN... I want real news that I can "use"!


3) And finally... I know, this is a long post O_o.

If everyone in the world was taking up as much space and raw materials as the average Northern American? Yeah, I can see how Earth would be depleted before Pee Wee Herman could think up an original word of the day ("G-rated", that is). "AAaaaaah"

Anywho, if the population of the world STARTED in North America... expanded, and kept the "culture" (or lack-thereof) of Northern American lifestyle, then I think Earth could handle us. First off, technology would be spitting out plenty of new ways to handle resources. The only problem, of course, would be seeing the technology put to use (take, for example, the "fabled" Electric Car). However, I believe that the world population would be small enough to live a comfortable life in the world; families comprised mostly of the annoyingly "cozy" 2.5 children.

Buuut, that's not the case, so let's not dream about it. Equally, the world does not live like North America, so let's not worry about it.


OK, if you had noticed, I underlined my favorite little part in that statement. The old "Me before you" idealism. Personally, I think that's how the world's cogs should turn. "Let the working man earn his pay," I say. But, y'see, it's that attitude that gets so many negative... anti-American attitudes. Because there are many "unfortunate" humans out there born into poor families in Third World Countries, it is a natural act to assume help from those more fortunate.

My basic instinct is to say "Go find a job..." but it's not that easy.


Meh, since I have nowhere else to go with this thought, I'll end this post here. Beware though... if you catch my attention with a comment, I might dare reply again! *gasps*


AFTER EDIT:
Oh, I just needed to add this last bit in... food for thought, y'know.

Kinda irrelivant... but I just liked it.

Want to explain how it was off-topic? Wait, don't bother, it wasn't. Of all things, inappropriate, not called for, etc., it was hardly off-topic. I choose to "speak" about him, rather than ban him.

The WWII thing was not dishonorable, be careful how you use that word. The United States, and even Europe were not wrong in their decision to wait things out. Looking back on it, it may have been a bad decision. But looking back on it, we know of everything that Nazi Germany did. At that time, they had no clue, they couldn't see the future. They didn't want war, and Germany wasn't this big superpower who was killing off entire races of people and trying to take over the world. And we weren't alive back then, we don't know what it was like. It may have turned out to be the wrong decision, but it wasn't dishonorable.

Just don't make the same mistake twice.

And on Afghanistan, they kinda handed over Kabul. It wasn't a long, drawn-out war. This wasn't WWII, and a lot of our attacks were done from the air. And recently, not much has happened. Battle happened very recently, one happened last spring, and there hasn't been too much for a while now. You guys are expecting 24/7 coverage from the front lines.

We have troops in Afghanistan, if anything breaks out, they fight, its over. A war with Iraq currently has 92,000 troops deployed, and is currently a huge issue in the US, and it's having a major effect on the economy. Major issue, with new information coming regularely, versus Afghanistan war which has small battles happening, nothing really ground breaking, just doing the dirty work. Which do you think Americans want to hear?

Because the media is too ****ing stupid to realize that lives are comprimised by their ****ing ratings.

That's relating to publishing what you want, of course, there are some restrictions. I think part of the blame should be put on our government for revealing this information to the greedy journalists. Unless that is, they're feeding them lies like they have before. I find that funny :)

The man has vanished too. Hope he dies in that cave.

Al-Jazeera? Truth? ROFLMGDMFAO! :lol: Good one.

You're right, we need more pro-America movements.

No man (or woman may be more appropriate) in their right mind would want to live under Taliban rule. Then again, look how many over there are brainwashed.

Almansurah, you constantly talk about the "real" news that all of us poor Americans never get to see because it is constantly filtered through the propaganda that is the American media. Yeah... RIGHT. Have you ever listened to the American media? Do you realize that if any major outlet was to find out about attrocities committed in Afghanistan OUR media would be the first to report it. Why? It equals ratings and we have the right of free speech, unlike most of the countries that you are so quick to defend. You speak out against America without realizing that if you were to reverse your opinions and put yourself in Iraq, you would most likely be DEAD now. Yes, America truly is the great satan. :rolleyes:

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Please enlighten us with the "truth".

As for the crack about dropping 2 nuclear weapons against Japan... DAMN STRAIGHT. A ground war against Japan would have cost us far toom much in the way of American blood, we warned Japan and even showed them what would happen if they didn't surrender, they didn't and we dropped the bomb.

The fact that we had to drop another bomb more than justifies that action in my mind. And Ranzid, I alsoi notice you failed to mention the Japanese torture camps during the war where hundreds of American soldeirs were uthlessly killed. But I wouldn't expect you to, its not in your character.

Damn, someone give this guy a medal!

Strangler for President! :usa:

But isn't that what you want? Look, if a country is communist, or doesn't want to do things YOUR way then you won't do business with it or you will try to convert it to capitalism.

Why aren't we doing it now? You see, our way of living don't give a **** about ressources, it's all about money. We'll do something allright but that's when there will be no more ressources. And then you can use all the technology you want to handle it, but if there is none to handle then we're ****ed.

And what do we do with them? We exploit them as cheap labor and say that we are helping them by giving them jobs.


And The Stangler, I won't start arguing with you for "who has done the worst to whom" because it will never end. But here's a few things that Americans should be proud of:

Source: www.bowlingforcolumbine.com

1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.

1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.

1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

1963-1975: American military kills 4 million civilians in Southeast Asia.

September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.

1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.

1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.

1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die.

1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis.

1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties

1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.

1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.

2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".

September 11, 2001: Osama Bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.

Is that all true?

Ranzid, the fact that you would quote Michal Moore as legitimate mews says it all. He is the next coming of Leni Reifenstahl. He pushes one libera view without ever attemping to show an alternative view or extenuating circumstances withour making sure he has the last word through commentary or creative editing. He has an agenda and makes sure that his agenda is completed no matter what information or opinions he conveniently omits from his propoganda. Its called yellow journalism and its very obvious.

The facts you mentioned may be true in his eyes, but don't think that they tell the whole story.

The same could be said for everything you said about Iraq and the other US oppenents in this thread, don't you think?

Oh, Miacheal Moore... That guy is funny.

When I stated I read the Pakistani newspapers, that was when I visited there, and the news I saw there was very different from the news I saw here in UK. It never stated that everything was peaceful as it seems to you, and if you think it's gonna be all peaceful in Afghanistan, then you're very wrong, research the history of Afghanistan, and you will find out what kind of people they are. The news was far from complete, infact it was only dedicated a minute little space in the newspaper [around the back pages] to try prevent people from seeing it, but at the end the truth always comes out anyways.......

Rndm_Perfection, thanks for your reply. You made good points.

lol. First the aim was to find Bin Laden, and 'smoke him out of his cave', but then it was stated it doesn't matter even if the leadership isn't caught. Quite a strange turn of events.

Yes they handed over Kabul, and the other areas. The Soviets also had quick control over the whole of Afghanistan, i.e. occupied it fully, but look at what happened to them. And yes, you're right a lot of attacks were done from the air, but you're wrong about one thing, that nothing is happening, a guerilla war is going on, with hit and run tactics, read up on reliable news.

The Russians are keenly following the America progress in Afghanistan, and well they're finding that more or less, Americans are doing the same or worse as the Russians were during their initial years of the invasion.

Yes, I do listen to the American media.

Down here in UK, we get to watch Fox News, CNN, and sometimes NBC. And there's also CNBC available.

Yeh Yeh about free speech, that is just a joke. If only the world cares about free speech that much. There is so much propaganda on your news stations, and even on many news stations, I could just keep on listing it.

Well lets see... CNN leans to the left, MSNBC is basically liberal, and Fox leans to the right. Oh yes, propoganda abounds. Please try and make valid points and back them up with facts and example.

Just saying our news is all propoganda doesn't do much to prove your case. Using Pakistani news and the like does even less. Why not try the Daily Babel in Iraq ( I LOVE the play on words with that name). I mean its only run by Saddam's kid, so it must be true.

Calling free speech a joke? LOL!! Your logic skills, or lack there of, continue to astound me. Do you even realize that you are using your rights to free speech right now? Do you realize that in other countries you would be put to death for merely mentioning a dissenting opinion? The contradictions between your actions and rhetoric are mind boggling. Free speec a joke? No.

You are the joke.

After September 11th, I remember reading in the paper that a couple writers in America got fired because of some negative things that they said about America in the newspapers a couple days after the attacks. I know this is a little example, but when times get rough, some of us have to watch what we say, unless we want to get fired.

Free speech doesn't mean you can write whatever you want, for whatever you want. If you're from Pakistan and thinks the US is the cause of all evil in this world, you can freely say that in the US. If you're Iraq and say Saddam is a fool, you will be killed.

In a job, you are restricted in what you can say. You think a journalist can just say what he wants? Think again, the reputation of the entire company is not going to be lost because someone chooses to go anti-America. He has rules to follow, if he breaks them, he gets fired. That has nothing to do with free speech. No one is stopping them from starting their own newspaper and writing whatever they want.

You people are so funny sometimes. This debate is so crazy.

OK gekko.


And did you guys see the briefing today? There was some combat in Afganistan. No US soldiers died, and they captured a Taliban guy too.

That was actually yesterday :p

So are you saying that report was propoganda or something? I'm not accusing you, I'm just not sure what you're getting at.

That was mentioned, eh? *thinks* There truly must not be much going on there, if that's the best the media could dig up for ratings.

LOL. No man, I just thought that was new news, and you guys are talking about war and stuff, so I said it. LOL./



AND IT IS PROPOGANDA!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!









;)

LOL! Ok, I just wanted to make sure. If that was propoganda, its the worst I've ever seen. I mean, at least the Daily Babel talks about "rivers of blood" and such. NOW THATS SOME GOOD PROPOGANDA!

It's the biggest battle since Operation Anaconda last spring.

Many things are happening in Afghanistan....things which dont get discussed openly in the media here.

Infact, there was a Black down which 'fell down' due to mechanical reasons stated on CNN on the 30th, a day before this, islamic news stated a helicopter was down....and this came out.

Its an amazing wonder how, after USA invaded Afghanistan, all of a sudden the rate of aircraft crashes due to reasons like weather conditions, or malfunctioining equipment, huan error, all of a sudden the rate has skyrocketed and gone high.

What happened? Did all the US Army engineers and maintenance crews go on vacation or what?

The beauty of unintelligence.

To continue out Iraq topic. Iraq now threatens to use suicide bombers in the US if we attack.

Only a terrorist nation would threaten to use terrorism against another country. And we found the checks Iraq wrote to Suicide Bombers in Palestine.

Best way to get rid of our nuclear weapons? Use them on Iraq! :usa:

I'm kind of wondering why Mr. Almansurah lives in the UK, rather than other countries such as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia that he seems so connected to. Maybe it has something to do with how they treat their citizens? Their form of government? Your rights in those countries? Just food for thought...

Saddam bodyguard fled. Good man!
 

Re: Saddam bodyguard fled. Good man!
 

Can we trust this source, gekko? Nothing about this has appeared on CNN.com or FoxNews.com.

The impression that I have is that if a nation is run by Islam or those who are Islamic, Almansurah will defend them no matter what their policies. Thats just my impression, though.

The Strangler just made me realize something. It's very obvious that I was standing against the US in this thread, but you have to understand that I'm in no way defending Islam or any other country (Irak) I'm neutral. I'm just against the way the US is trying to control (at least economically) the rest of the world.

Re: Re: Saddam bodyguard fled. Good man!
 

It's appeared a couple places today.

There is no problem with defending Islam as 99% of Muslims are most likely wonderful people, but defending horrific people and regimes merely because they are Islamic is flawed reasoning. This is what I believe is Almansurah's leaning.

well, Sen. Joseph Biden (D-DE) gave a speech at my school today. He claimed he spent the most time with the president of any other senator, and I basically agreed with his stance on the war. He said that we need support from the rest of the world, otherwise the backlash will be more than we can handle. When we try to re-build the government of Iraq, we don't just want American soldiers there, we want Turkish soldiers, German soliders, etc. He also disagreed with the idea of a pre-emptive strike, as other countries may take advantage of a doctrine like that i.e India nuking Pakistan for what they think would be future harm)...I don't know much about politics, so I probably don't remember all of the important things he said, but he had some good things to say...And is there some big deal on Thursday? He said that some more evidence of Iraq hiding weapons was going to come out on Thursday, some taped phone messages or something...anyway, this probably doesn't even make sense, it was an assembly at 8:00 on Monday! It's hard to pay attention!

He also told an amusing anecdote about president Bush, apparently Bush didn't even know that Sweden had an army recently, despite them having the 2nd most powerful in Europe...He continued to argue that Bush wasn't untintelligent...just uninformed, which not many of us bought. ha...this isn't trying to diss Bush, just Biden's argument wasn't all that endearing.

And look what Sadaam Hussein has done against Muslims:
Also, if you were wondering of some of the forms of torture that Iraq uses, here you go:
Now maybe we all know why Almansurah lives in a Democratic country rather than one of the friendly and generous Islamic states.

And I still would like this question answered by Mr. Almansurah:

How does Islam address democracy, women's rights, and people's freedom to choose their own destiny?

Problem #1. Oh, thinking out loud, sorry :D

Great claim, can he back it up? Probably not.

We have support, leave it to a Democrat to keep forgetting that everytime he opens his mouth.

You mean, we do the fighting, then afterwards the cowards decide to come in with the hopes to benefit from this new country? If they don't help from now on, I say leave them out of it. Last thing I want to see is France getting an oil deal.

Of course, he's a democrat. Unless they're covering their ass because they want to become President, they oppose the idea.

Who said anything about nuking anyone? That's another political debate in itself.

Don't worry, there was none. It was just a democratic anti-war speech, hoping to get some more people marching in the anti-war protests. By the way, many of those are actually set up by people sent here from Iraq. Agree or disagree, but don't march, it only hurts the country.

Wednesday I believe. Powell will adress the United Nations Security Council and show evidence against Iraq. Satellite photos, and tapes of officials saying "I can't believe they missed that," "don't tell them that," "move that," and other things showing them trying to hide from inspectors.

... like Bill Clinton...

He graduated from Yale, did he not?

Yeah, well I'm not going to argue anything because I'm uninformed (like Bush I guess. ;-) But, he wasn't all that anti-war. He didn't want to rush into to it too quickly I guess, but it's not like he was utterly opposed. Anyway, he may be a presidential candidate, so watch out.