I believe in God. I do not believe he placed anything on this Earth. I believe in evolution, but something had to create that ball of energy. Matter is never created nor destroyed, some something had to put it there.

The Bible is a book about morals. Funny, because a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up. Garden of Eden... doesn't exist. Nice story until we got satellites and looked all over Egypt. It ain't there. Oh ya, and Apples can't grow in that region, so don't think they ate from an Apple tree. How do people still believe in it? They say if God doesn't want you to find it, you won't. Seems to me that ran out of answers.

That brings me to my next point. Religion is a way to explain the unexplained. Always has been. Look at Greek mythology. Back then science couldn't explain as many things. What causes lightning? The great God Zeus, obviously! Now we shrunk it down to one God, and have the same idea. What we can't explain, we use religion to answer. Such as what started the world, and where we go after we die.

Also, in many cases, Christianity contradicts itself. I just need to listen in church more to find them all. One example is how they God can forgive any sin. Then they go on to say some sins God can't forgive, and you will go to hell. Logically, it makes no sense. So you need to question religion. It is really true, or a way of explaining the unexplained, and scaring society into behaving morally?

Gekko has a perfect explanation there. I just hate to refer to it as "god" because of the images that pop into my head.

I believe in God. I believe that the universe wasn't just there....What made that small star that made up our whole universe? I believe that there is something after we have that final breath...

That's not true... God forgives when you ask for forgiveness, there is only one case in which God can't forgive you, when you kill yourself, because you can't ask for forgiveness after you are already dead, can you?

Now give another example of contradiction.

How about if you kill yourself, doctors bring you back for a few secs and you ask for
forgiveness, and then die?

Or ask for forgiveness for the sin you're about to commit?

If you believe in an afterlife then why no ask there?

How exactly do you ask? Verbally? Mentally?

Is there a questioner that must be filled out? And in 3-4 weeks God will get back to you on your question but instead of an answer receive coupons for celestial orange juice?

How about what you just said... you can't ask for forgiveness when you commit suicide because you can't ask for forgiveness when you're dead...

but... then how can you ask for forgiveness if you die saaaay... in a car accident? Or some other unexpected way?

And couldn't you just ask for forgiveness BEFORE killing yourself?

Edit: Danchastu replied before me :baby:

Damn right I did. :D And since no one reads the last topic on the page right before:

Ok... lets's think logically...

Xantar has never completly ruled out God as an answer, right?

At the same time, he refuses to read and understand the Bible.

IF there were a god, and you didn't even give it a chance on earth, how pissed would you be at yourself in hell?

think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?

It would be different if you guys gave it a chance.

Death isn't a joke, and I think all people should look for an answer before they die. You guys seem to be taking no action, and saying you don't believe in god because it can't be proven by some scientist who would rather prove it wrong that correct.

It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction.

Or maybe I would die and find out there's no afterlife (although I don't know how that would happen when I would be dead'n'gone) and it turns out that I wasted my life (or at least some of it) reading the bible, going to church, etc etc?

I would still like an answer to my three-legged gerbil question. Humans are the worst creatures on this planet so why do they live after they die and other animals don't?

Well, if that's what you want me to do, I've already done it. I read a biology book which explained to me what can be proven to happen to me (and other living things) after death.

The body decomposes, and the living being ceases to exist. Since there is no proof that people actually exist after death, this is a perfectly acceptable explanation to me.

Lemme think, if you killed yourself, it's impossible for you to come back to life. If you attempted to kill yourself, and you don't die, and you (sincerely) ask for forgiveness for the attempt, then you die, you are forgiven.

If you eat too many Tacos you die and it's your own fault, right? But if your intent wasn't yo kill yourself, you didn't kill yourself.

You can only ask after... if you ask before God will be more pissed at you because you could have prevented it.

And if you think about asking for forgiveness before you even sin, you don't have a very good relationship with god.

If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn.

You just ask. You don't have to have a voice to ask for anything.

"it's impossible for you to come back to life"

Ummm... havn't there been cases when someone was medically dead (or whatever the hell j00 call it), and was revived shortly after? :confused:

You eletricute yourself in an attempt to try to kill yourself stopping your heart making you legally dead. You can be brought back using a defliblulator.

Why not give it a chance? Why not waste your time doing something you don't believe will result in anything?

Why don't you wake up early every Saturday, go into your back yard, hold a block of cheddar above your head and walk in a circle for an hour and a half? you don't know if it'll get you into heaven, but it could, therefore you should do it right?

Right... well you knew I'd appear sooner or later, right?

I can't really add much from my point of view that Xantar hasn't said already, and far more eloquently than I could put it... but here goes anyway.

[Start one of no doubt several posts]

In chronological order (aand without quotes, cos I'm lazy):

"i'd like to know what those questions are, thats all"

As far as believeing in god, I can no longer find any questions to ask. To me, the evidence I have seen that made me make up my mind leaves little room for doubt.
True, I don't know where the universe came from. But that's about all I can't see for myself; everything else has been more than adequately explained to me by scientific analysis.

"oh bloody hell. not this again"

Can't blame you for feeling offended; it's a very personal topic, and yes emotions can get a bit heated and people may get annoyed at everyone's apparently "stupid" (from their perspective) POV. Basically, if you can't handle the debate, then please don't participate for all our sakes.

"It can be answered both ways..."

True it can be answered both ways. But this is contrary to the scientific method. Scientific method assumes nothing (especially existence of a god). If you can't find an explanation for something, you keep looking. You don't just say "damn, I can't figure this out, must be gods doing". Hence there is point in arguing; the two are incongruent belief systems.

"as for the dinosaurs, their are references in the bible"

Yes, but they are said to be co-existing or just pre-dating humans. Unless you want to argue with a geologist how 60 million years worth of rock got in between them and not one human remain found with the dinosaurs (and don't even think of bringing up that lame arsed "proof" that was the supposed human foortprints found with a dinosaur.
And whilst we're on the subject: as I read them, most of the references in the bible could apply to any number of things. Here's a question: have you ever read a horoscope and thought "wow, that really DOES apply to me?" I find it odd that instead of explicitly describing scaly reptiles ten feet tall who tore people limb from limb it only makes a few exceedingly vague inferences that anyone could dig up if they were eager enough to find them.

"why believe in him....if you don't, when you physically die, you will be seperated from god for eternity"

One of the more offensive posts I've read on the subject. If you read between the lines you are saying that by me not believing in a god I am inferior to you because you are right and I am wrong. And yet this is backed up only by opinion. You have no scientific proof god exists, and you should refrain from thinking you do. Your statement was phrased as a fact. This implies you know something I don't (presumably you do have proof). Either phrase a more polite way of saying this (such as by adding an "IMO") or refrain from saying it at all. As Xantar says, you're not helping things.

"What is the "scientific method"?"

In short - what you can see.
In detail - an explanation similar to Xantars;
1. You take a piece of the universe, and you look at it.
2. You wonder how it was created (scientifically)
3. You form a hypothesis resulting from these observations and thoughts.
4. You test this hypothesis by experiment on other objects to see if it stays true
5. If the hypothesis does not fit with observable results, you change your hypothesis to fit what can be seen.
6. Repeat 4
7. Repeat 5
8. When there is no reasonable discrepancy between what you think is happening (the hypothesis) and what you know is happening (the experiment), your hypothesis has been justified and you are entitled to call it a theory. This theory may indeed be modified later by further theories (best example is of gravity; works in everyday cases, but fails when the numbers get very small or very big, which is where the much newer quantum mechanics fits in; it explains the parts of physical laws that gravity could not.

"Have you went to church and prayed the "correct" way?"

Depends what you mean by the "correct" way. Whose church do I go to? Hindu? Islam? Christian? Pagan? Buddhist? Catholic? Baptist? Protestant? CoE? Scientology? Each of these churches has it's own way of worshipping, to no god, a god, or gods. Which is the correct way? If you believe the "correct"way is in the christian fashion, then: a) yes I have. I was educated under the grossly unfair British system where christianity is forced on people, and until I was 12 I believed it; and b) I am astounded by your arrogance in denouncing every single other belief system in the world as "incorrect". Personally I think people deserve some respect for their beliefs, and this comment is more of an insult.

"Have you read and comprehended most/all of the bible?"

I have read the bible. It's what convinced me to become an atheist. When you say understood it...? Well surely everyione has their own way of understanding anything. When you "understand" it, you see god. When I "understand" it, I see a method of population control. Again, you make presumptions that you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

"there's no way to prove it WRONG"

Technically speaking, no there is no way to prove there isn't a god simply because of the mercurial nature of gods themselves. But there are several large swathes of religious texts and edicts which have been shown scientifically to be wrong. Like the earth being 6000 years old for instance. I simply prefer to put my faith ni things that I can see, not things which MIGHT be true just because no-ones come up with a decent explanation yet.

"cuz like all the religious people are like "I believe this I believe that" and the proof is only what they believe, so it's not really proof, but then someone says "Yeah, well I believe he doesn't exist" and the religious people are like "Do you have any PROOF that he doesn't exist?" and I'm like "Do you have any PROOF that he does exist?""

Many a true word is spoken in jest, DsH...! It is true that many religious people hold their own thought to be sacrosanct and any deviation from this is heresy and would therefore require an immense amount of evidence for them to even begin to challenge their beliefs. And yes, when you say "I do not believe in god because..." many see it as a personal attack on their beliefs, hance they get offended. I wish everyone would just lighten up and treat everyone like a human. If anyone gets offended by my remarks, maybe you should take a look at your own and try to see them from the point of a non-believer viewpoint, as I am struggling to do from yours.

"Ugh... if you haven't experimented with somthing yourself, how can you prove somthing?"

You are now confusing science with belief. Even if Xantar did believe in god and all that, it still wouldn't prove that god existed. To say that the only reason he has that god doesn't exist is that he hasn't prayed ("correctly" presumably) is very ignorant. What if he prayed to the pagan gods? Would that prove that they exist?
Xantar has formed his beliefs about the existence or non-existence of gods through his own thoughts and observations: he has proved it to himself. However, believing in god does not magically create scientific proofs for everything out of thin air. I could say to you: if you've not experimenyted with not believing in god, how can you prove that he does exist? I could also say "prove invisible pink unicorns totally undetectable to any instrument don't exist" and you would be in the same situation. It is outside of scientific analysis.

"You have a hypotesis.... you've made predictions, but you haven't tested them. 2 out of 4 steps."

A hypothesis for what? His beliefs? His beliefs are based (as far as I can tell) on observable facts (that you or I or anyone could go and see for oursleves) with the minimum amount of spirtiual muddlement. How can he test his beliefs? Well from what I know of him, he already has. he has looked at the evidence laid before him, and concluded that science is a better yardstick than faith. What is your problem with this?

"I believe in God, I personally cannot see how somebody cannot."

Well, at least you acknowledge that it's your own personal belief. As far as how I can't believe in god? For me it is easy. Believing in god makes you happy because you see that when you die if you are good to him you will spend eternity in paradise whilst infidels like myself will suffer endless torment. But I have no need of a god to make me feel happy; I do not need an afterlife, this one is enough for me. Sure it'd be nice to think I'd live forever, but I can't swallow that one. I cannot see it ever happening, and I have never seen any evidence of it happening. Hence it would be rather presumptuous of me to say that it existed. So I derive my happiness from knowing that I am going to do my utmost to make my life as enjoyable as possible. That is where I derive my happiness; from the contentment of myself, my family and my friends. Everyone has different things that make them happy; for you it is god. Everyone has a different method.

"Too many questions, and the only way we can find answers is by dying."
True enough.

"I believe in Jesus Christ"
So do I if you leave out the christ bit

" And if Christians believe that other Religions are wrong, and other religions believe that Christianity is wrong, then who is right?"
One of the things that led me to question my beliefs. As I see it, none are right and none are wrong; they are all equally valid. What got to me was the way people kill each other over it, each with the belief that "god was on their side", like the Taliban do. IMO, there is no way an omnipotent benevolent god would allow this; here follows one of my favourite quotes:

[next post...]

If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?

If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?

the way I see it, on one hand, you are banking on a chance that all things turn out the same, and on the other hand, you are saving yourself from somthing.

Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.

So why not pay it?

What you are saying is, what if nothing happens? What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?"

To me, you have nothing to lose by reading a book.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
--Epicurus

Even if I could believe in a god, the atrocities that he lets humans commit would lead me to believe he was not worth worshipping.

"Dunandan, there is no way in explaining anything that counters what people think. If someone thinks a tree cant just magicly appear and you say "Well I think God can make a measly tree," you still havent answred, because In their opinion god dose not exist.

Plus it dosnt help to state your opinion trying to answer either becase thats IYO."

Precisely. It all comes down to what you believe. And what right do you have to assert that your opinion is more valid than someone elses? This is arrogant, ignorant and derogatory.

"Is there really something out there that can only be explained by God's existence? I believe there is not."

An answer to your question? That's what I believe too. AFAICS, there is nothing I have ever seen in my 21 years that shows beyond reasonable doubt that there is an all-powerful being who can control or create at whim. End of story.

"explain why you find it hard to believe that god exists"

Not just hard... all but impossible for me I'm afraid. To make me believe in god would mean I would have to forget almost everything I've learned over (at least) the past 8 years. As far as explanations go, I think I have done that more than enough.

"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available."

Actually there is. They were made by humans. Scaled experiments have shown that the pyramids can be built using huge labour forces and the advanced enginerring techniques they possessed. Experiments also show that the Easter Island heads are not only possibly made by humans, but actually show evidence of it. Pollen analysis shows that the inhabitants of Easter Island decimated their trees in order to make and manouvre these statues. There are even half-carved out hunks of rock stuck in the quarries.

"I just think that so much money, time and effort has been put into God, that there must be something out there that can do this."

? Explain please.

"I also have had some freaky Deja Vu's that I can tell you are Deja Vu's and not made up by my brain without knowing conciously"

Prove it. I don't doubt that you've had déja vu's (I have too) but you have no way of knowing if they are your head playing tricks on you or not. Memory is not the most reliable of records. Seems quite easy to me to see how your brain can just make you think you've seen/done/felt something before.

"I'm asking you for a logical reason for NOT thinking he exists."

He's already given it about three times. How many times will he have to say it? HE DOES NOT SEE ANY LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD and therefore doesn't see why he should.

"Also, even if you don't feel he exists, why not read deeper into it?"

So maybe Xantar hasn't. So what? He's explained it satisfactorily to himself. To turn the tables again, I wonder if you have studied the thinking behind atheism and agnosticism in depth? To suggest Xantar study your beliefs whilst you show such a flagrant disrespect of his (although you may not see it, as it is from your point of view only) is rude.

"It also seems that you have no path anyway, and you are not even trying to search for one."

Presumably, like me, because he doesn't feel that he has to.

"Right now, NOTHING pertaining creation can be explained, period."

We can prove that the earth is a fair bit older than 6000 years, and that the universe is expanding and that their are background traces of an explosion in the form of high energy microwave radiation at the edge of the universe. Just because not every aspect of how the universe formed can be scientifically explained doean't mean that there is no scientific explanation.

"...is what make the Bible the easiest thing to believe."

You may say that a drunken man is more happy than a sober one. But it doesn't make the drunken man any better. I agree, the bible is by far the easiest thing to believe. I just don't believe it.

"Examine the very thing you are, a Human, there isn't an explination that makes sense, is there?"

Yes

"...but for you what makes the most sense... and why does that make more scientific sense to you?"

Science, plain and simple. It's what I can see - and that makes more sense to me than someone telling me that the world is governed by an existential deity with total control over us. Why does science make more scientific sense to me? Isn't this a bit if a silly question?

"When a scientist create a new creature, not an evolved form of somthing, but an all around new creature, It will still be hard for me to believe that liquids came together on eath and created somthing as advanced as us."

How are we meant to "create" a new creature? By recombining DNA that already exists. This is what happened with life overall. We just don't know enough about DNA in order to do this yet.

"What makes you not believe in god."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGH!
The way that (to me) there is not one iota of evidence for the existence of a god, whereas science produces a plethora of explanations for virtually every known natural process as well as hundreds of unnatural ones.

"It isn't that hard to understand..."

Thank you, PureEvil.

"I don't believe in god. the reasons are a bit personal so I won't go into that. the reason I am posting this is because I wanted to say how controlling and unaccepting catholic/Christian/Lutheran/whatever's are. whenever one of them finds someone who doesn't share their beliefs, they either dislike them, or try to "convert them". I USED to be catholic, with a very religious grandmother, so any defense toward your religion you could passably come up with, I have already heard. I do not try to "convert" religious people to atheism, and I would hope to receive the same respect. anyway, the only religion I could see myself taking up is budism, as it's a religion of love and acceptance, regardless of anyone's belief, and I respect that."

Wow. Respect, man! I too am annoyed with what I see as controlling aspects of religion. I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god (just as I don't presuppose that you shouldn't believe in a god, I don't think people should tell me what to think either), and the way that so many religions look down on (and in many instances kill) those who do not share their opinions.
I too repect buddhism for being probably the only religion I have studied which preaches tolerance and acceptance above all.

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
--Dalai Lama

"OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart"

Now now Fez, calm down. Xantar is just expressing an opinion as well as he can so he can best explain his beliefs to others.

"A logical reason for not believing in God? I don't think there is any such reason any more there is a logical reason for believing in God."

Precisely.

"Here's a surprise for you: atheism has a little bit of faith too."

Yup, it certainly does. Like he says, we just place it in different things to you.

"My belief has never failed me, so why should I stop believeing?"

My belief has never failed me either.

"So once again, what personal experiences and/or things you know make you believe that God doesn't exist?"

For the last freaking time... A TOTAL LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE PERTAINING TO HIS EXISTENCE.

"I can experiment as much as I want... through prayer... (of course you won't accept this answer)"

So you have just admitted that you are closed minded and are only prepared to see what your prayer leads you to see. Am I correct, or do I misinterpret?

"They just knew somthing, but they didn't want to find an explination for it."

Wrong. They just accepted that things fall and forgot about it. They didn't care how it worked.

"Religion is a form of attempting to find an explination for everything."

And, in my opinion, failing dismally as far as logical thought goes.

"Do you know what Hell is?"

I imagine Xantar does know what hell is, in your sense of it anyway. But as far as I'm concerned I'm not going there, and again I think it arrogant and rude of you to tell him that he is. I don't believe it exists, so why should it worry me?

"What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time
What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell"

So the minute he reads it he'll be so overwhelend he'll eventaully see the "real truth"?

I've read it, I've tried it and I don't believe it, period.


As long as every question is answered by the word "God," scientific inquiry is simply impossible.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)

Well your intent when you commit suicide is rarely to kill yourself. It's to get out of the ****ty life you have. To be free from your problems, to find a better life. It's not exactly to kill yourself, it's to find happiness. And don't we all eat tacos to find happiness?

I love how Christians think they are perfect, and everyone else is going to hell. What happened to a loving god who loved everyone? You saying all Hindu, Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, Confuciousists, and all the people who never knew of religion will burn in hell. You can tell they made this crap up during a time when everyone thought they were the supreme being.

And you couldn't prevent eating tacos?

Life insurance is not for you personally. It's for your family after you die. Have you seen the nice little catalog they got when you die? Caskets, vaults, funeral service, tomb stones, cemetary space, getting death certificates, and not to mention the loss of that person's income. Everyone will die, so you know you will need it. It's not for you, it's for your family. And if you've ever seen the price it costs when someone died, you would want your family to have it if you died.

Got a point there. I was raised Catholic. Never cared for religion, it's the most boring thing ever. But then i went to a Catholic high school. Think they would help me see the "light?" Ya, right. They pretty much drove me away. The more i learned, the worse the religion looked. The more I knew about the religion, the more I saw the flaws, and saw how much religion really isn't about God, but about society.

I hate to blast your posts down to one line, but, this is all you needed to say.

If you read it, and don't believe it, your opinion is more respectable that DsH/Xantar... because you have a reason, period.

You (probably) know as much as you need to know about the Bible, and if you die and go to hell, you know exactly who's fault it is.... and that's a WHOLE lot better than not even giving it a chance.

But I'm sure you probably read it with an attitude of dis belief rather than learning, but who am I to say that... I don't know.

I'd rather see somebody try than not try

He died when Adam and Eve sinned

Jesus is the savior, God is the creator. If you read the bible, you would know that he has killed plenty of people.

We should love him for his creations, but that doesn't mean that he loves every person on earth.

"But you see, that doesn't work for me."

Nor me neither.
I agree with Xantar; there are too many atheists and agnostics who read a bit of the bible and thought it was full of ****. They then apply this to all religion. This is the wrong way to go about it. If on the other hand you have no need for spirtual guidance like Xantar seems to be, why bother researching into somrthng you have no use for?

" The people I DO have beef with, are the people that accuse people of going to hell for eternity or whatever"

My beef too. IMO responsible for some of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated by so-called humanity.

"I believe in God. I do not believe he placed anything on this Earth. I believe in evolution, but something had to create that ball of energy."

So gekko does not believe the bible to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yet he believes in god. In fact gekko, I agree with a remarkable number of your points. I too believe the bible was primarily created as a method of control in creating a stable society (that's what all the moral bits are about). But the bible only perpetuated these ideas (which are part of basic human nature); it didn't invent them.

"Religion is a way to explain the unexplained."

Precisely why so many people find it so comforting.

"God forgives when you ask for forgiveness"

And why should I ask someone I don't believe in for forgiveness, when I have done nothing more wrong than not believe your beliefs? Why am I destined to spend the rest of time in unimaginable agony for thinking different to you? I have no need to ask for forgiveness; by your definition I am going to hell.

"At the same time, he refuses to read and understand the Bible."

You are making assumptions again. 1. he has no need to read the bible, and like he says has better things to be doing. 2. you are onto the "understanding" thing again, which since it's coming from you I expect means "believes in god". He doesn't feel any spiritual need to have to read it, therefore why should he? It's his own choice. Have you read On The Origin of Species? You could call that my bible. Yes, there's alot wrong with it, but I wonder how hard you have tried to understand his/our point of view from a different perspective. Still you persist in you r belief that we are lacking something human because we do not believe in god.

"think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?"

I believe in the lack of a god. Therefore asking me to "try it out" would be like me asking you to pray to Allah or Buddha or any number o other deities you care to mention. This is grossly insensitive to his beliefs.

"It would be different if you guys gave it a chance."

I already have. Not happy with it one little bit.

"I think all people should look for an answer before they die"

I found mine a long time ago.

"It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction."

Yet another offensive comment. I am not wsting my life, nor do I intend to. Once again, you presume that Xantar and I are beneath you because we do not follow your beliefs. How would you like it if I became ruler of the world and started saying that people like you are wasting their lives because of what they believe?
I already have more than enopugh direction at the moment thank-you. I don't see how a god could give me any more.

"I would still like an answer to my three-legged gerbil question. Humans are the worst creatures on this planet so why do they live after they die and other animals don't?"

The more I learn about most religions, the more I am convinced humans have worshipped nothing but themselves.

"If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn."

Well, what a surprise. Again (I've lost count) you say that you (presumably baptised) are going to live in heaven and that everyone else in the entire world who hasn't been is going to die and burn in hell. Did it never occur to you you might be wrong? Obviously not.

"Why don't you wake up early every Saturday, go into your back yard, hold a block of cheddar above your head and walk in a circle for an hour and a half? you don't know if it'll get you into heaven, but it could, therefore you should do it right?"

Crikey gekko, you should start a church.

"If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?"

Cos it'd be nice to die knowing you actually made something of it, rather than regretting that you'd not done enough.

"If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?"

To me, what I am doing in my life makes a huge difference to my death already. There are things I know I've done and can look back on with pride.

"Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.
So why not pay it?"

Because it is contrary to my beliefs. If an Islam guy came to you and said exactly the same thing, how would you feel? Why the hell should I be made to believe in something I don't believe in? I thought humans had the right to be free and decide tgheir own views. Obviously not in your opinion.

"What you are saying is, what if nothing happens?"

No. What I am saying is that I don't think anything will happen.

"What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?""

Then I'll go "hey ho, looks like they were all right and I was wrong. Looks like I'll just have to shuffle off to the eternal lake of fire then." Thing is I consider this so fantastically unlikely that it doesn't bother me.

Blimey, here we go again. You are assuming that I read it from a standpoint of disbelief. You are wrong. I read it to confirm my flagging beliefs that god really did exist. Yes, I looked to it for guidance. It pushed me away - I read it, and I understood it, and I couldn't believe I had been so stupid as to think that all that was true. I went to the bible in time of need, when my very beliefs were at stake, and it wasn't even able to stand up to the qeuries of a 12 year old.

Result? Goodbye god.

Including all the thousands of innocent (by my definition anyway) peopel who are senselessly killed every day? Either by war, or disease, or starvation?

Again you state your belief in the exisence of god as fact. Again you presume the arrogant position that you are more right than we are.

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, it's just that I don't seem to be able to get through to you how offesnive some of your remarks are.

So what if you spent your whole life trying to follow Jesus and you still go to hell? You believe that an afterlife exists, and you accept it as fact. But in reality, we don't know if it does, and we don't know if it doesn't.

For all you know, satan could've taken the form of Jesus, and you spent your whole life worshipping him, and now you'll be stuck in hell.

In all honesty, if you believe in the ways of Christianity, and you don't try, it might be a hard thing to imagine. It's like you're choosing a life in hell. But you need to remember some people don't believe, and to them, giving it a chance is a waste of time. It would be like me praying east everyday. I don't think it does any good, so why bother doing it?

And even if heaven and hell are real, and you believe in them, who says you need to be a certain religion, or read a certain book to get into heaven? Who says you can't just be a decent human being and not get into heaven? If you believe in God, but don't follow any organized religion, are you really going to hell? I mean, the 10 commandments are basically moral standards. You don't need to be Christian to honor your parents, not kill, steal, commit adultery. You're basically saying unless you belong to this social group, God will throw you in hell.

Look at all the extremists out there. A lot more than just muslim. Tons of Christian extremists. You really think they belong in heaven more than an athiest? I know people who don't care for religion, but live by much higher moral standards than these people who call themself Christians.

Personally, I think Christianity is screwed up. Even if I believe there is a God and an afterlife, should I spend my entire life as a part of something I feel is utter crap?

What?

Offensive???

If someone asks me a question about God, I'm going to answer it as if it were fact... and there is nothing you can do about it.

If someone asks me a question about creation Etc... I will not state it as fact.

And what's with your long ass posts, 99% of the stuff you replied to wasn't even aimed at you.

Is anybody going to argue my point?

PLease i want to be proven wrong, even if it means I don't look transparent on the forums.....:unsure:

"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available"

I saw this show about the pyramids (Egyptian history is like one of the few kinds I actually find interesting :p) where like... from the tools available at the time... or something... they constructed this little thing which had to do with efficiency and stuff I guess, and it made it so just like a few people could lift this big block enough to get some support under it and then lift it up one more "level"...

and there was also this theory that there was like a system of ramps or something wrapping up around the pyramids...

but I dunno fo sho...

As for the big heads... I dunno... what's so... god....like.... about them? heh heh...

As for Deja Vu... I've also had times where something had happened and I was like 100% sure that it had happened before...

I dunno... the human mind isn't perfect or nutin, it could just be a weird trick...

I've had some major deja vu in school where the teacher said something and I was like "Whoa, I coulda sworn we learned this like last year :eek:" ;)

I watched a program on how the Easter Island heads were made...interesting it was.

I get Deja Vu to a point where I get confused between dreams and reality. Weird...in a fun yet annoying way.

I don't believe in god because I (as well as pretty much everyone else I know) don't believe in stuff until it can be proven. People use the argument "Well, you can't prove there ISN'T a god, can you?" and I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real. Like I said hundreds of times before, if you're going to believe something that can't be scientifically proven just because it makes sense to you and your prayers have come true, then you'd have to try every single religion to see if you were right. Christians here, have you tried every single religion? I already know the answer is no, because it's probably impossible to try EVERY religion, so saying it makes sense is irrelevant when you haven't tried to see if other religions make sense.

Which brings me to my next point, there are so many religions, and they all thing they're right. I mean, seriously, just look at it this way, you're just one of the millions who has an opinion which is different that millions of others, and you think you're right? The odds aren't great, and if you haven't tried all the religions, you have no clue as to what one you think is right for you if you want to be religious.

Anyhoo, I think god is jusy a fairy tale that has made it big. I mean, just think about a person who controls everything anybody does and lives in a place we don't know of/can't see. until we're dead... LMAO, when you can find me proof that controlling millions of people is possible, maybe I'll believe it then.

And of course, there's the question who made god? Nobody has ever answered that in a way where it makes any sense at all, so nobody should have a reason to believe he's real.

And who's ever seen god? Has anyone ever taken a picture of god?

Annnnnnd isn't it convenient that almost everything that has to do with proving god is real happens after you die? Of course nobody can prove he's not real when you say we have to die first to make sure. People have been dead and then came alive before, so couldn't they tell us if they saw god?

But above all: If god wanted me to know he was real, he would do so. He created us all, right? So if he created us, why don't we automatically know he's real? He would have just made it an unarguable fact, like saying wood comes from trees, etc.

I don't know what religion you follow, but I know Catholicism says that God loves every human unconditionally and forever. Just studying a bit of the Gospels with Jesus and you realize the people Jesus (or God as Catholics believe) hung out with were sinners and whores and stuff. Because he was a sinner himself? Obviously not, but because he (or God) loves them and always will and realizes they simply need guidance.

This is not to say I'm Catholic, just that while going to Catholic school you learn quite a bit.

db

I feel like disecting a post-- I choose..... :: Points to gangsta thug boy :: Chis.

I just want to say that I've looked at many other religions and found flaws-- small things that go wrong. I, myself, am a Christain, and I believe in what I believe because of the facts I know about the Bible and God.

~I know that the Bible has never been wrong. If you compare the origional biblical transcripts with other accepted historical documents, you will find no extraordinary contradictions. Every Biblical city has been located, most every biblical personality has been accounted for in other historical documents, and as far as we know, it contains pure fact. I have yet to see any discovery that mankind has made contradict the bible's teaching.

~I know that the Bible has no in context contradictions in it's origional manuscripts. If you read through the Bible, you will find that in the origional documents, there are no contradictions and no overlaps anywhere. If anyone in here has found one, I'd like to see it-- but aside from that, there are no overlaps.

~I know that the Bible's teachings are invaluable. If anyone would like to debate this, then look in-- leviticus, I believe it was, in the old testiment law. You'll find laws for cleanliness. Take a moment to reflect on the affects that the laws would have on our culture if we followed them today. STD's would be rare, if not nonexistant, Food poisoning would be nearly gone, and this is only the beginning of the benifits.

I haven't tried every religion, but I've studied the bible, Read up on it's backround, compared it with other books, and found it to be the most logical one out there.



A place that we don't know of? Odd. If you didn't know if it, then how can you speak of it? Just a thought.

Can't see? I can't see air. A simple arguement indeed, but it seems to do the trick. I can see the effects of air, you'll say. But it's simple enough to argue that everything around here is the effect of God's workmanship. Please, think about what you say before you say it.

As for the controlling people-- that is simple. Look at the kings and dictators of this century. Take hitler for example. He controlled a country. If he didn't have control over the people, would they really have let him kill 500,000 jews (I'm not sure about the number). Would they really have let him start a war? He was in control-- No question about it.


Who made the universe? Then why should we believe it's real?


Answered above..........

You make it sound like it's a conspiricy. And what makes you think that most of the things that have to do with God happen after you die? As far as you know, we all go to Heaven after we die and that's it. Have you read the Bible and tried to understand what it says? If you did, then I'm sure you would realize that God has alot to do with us while we're still in this world.


And why would he do that? If he WAS real, then what would give you the right to tell him what to do, and what makes you think that you have half a clue of what he would do? Just another thought.



I doubt anyone will read this, but let me leave youall with this thought. It's an age-old thought from a man named Pascal. This is known as Pascal's wager.


"There are four possibilites as to what happens after we die.

1. There is no God and we did not believe in one. We gain nothing.
2. There is no God and we did believe in one. We gain nothing.
3. There is a God and we believed in him. We gain everything.
4. There is a God but we denied him. We lose everything."


Although there are many religions to follow, wouldn't you think it's best to at least choose one? If someone gave you a free lotto ticket, would you just toss it to the side? What if that ticket had the jackpot on it? You don't lose anything by taking it, but if you do toss the ticket, and it's a winner, then you don't get the money-- you lose it.


"Leo"

THank you DH!

At least somebody around here has the guts :p

HAHAHAH SUCKED IN. You got 7000 posts................

Oh wait that's that DB stuff :( Damn eyes.

Neways, the heads in Easter Island are huge (not forgetting heavy), and apparently nobody has proven how they got there.

Also with the Pyramids there's been huge talk about how they were built so perfectly, and stacked. Even with all the technology in the world they could not replicate them

an anonymous voice says*but bobcat, that goes for old paintings, roman artifacts and heaps of other stuff*

Quiet you!

Anyway they had other stuff in this show i was watching about pyramids. Like how the world would turn out in the future, and apparently it was really accurate.

My point is that if science can't prove how these things got here, then who's to say God doesn't exist?

I don't know much about this stuff, so i'm expecting to get proven wrong.....very soon :unsure:

"I just want to say that I've looked at many other religions and found flaws-- small things that go wrong. I, myself, am a Christain, and I believe in what I believe because of the facts I know about the Bible and God."

You've looked ay "many other religions." I bet you've "looked" into christianty a LOT more than the others, haven't you? And either way, you can't find flaws in the bible? Have you even read anyone else's replies, or just decided to "dissect" mine because it was shorter? Read sdtpikachu's replies... And Gekko said already "The Bible is a book about morals. Funny, because a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up. Garden of Eden... doesn't exist. Nice story until we got satellites and looked all over Egypt. It ain't there. Oh ya, and Apples can't grow in that region, so don't think they ate from an Apple tree. How do people still believe in it? They say if God doesn't want you to find it, you won't. Seems to me that ran out of answers" No flaws my ass.

"I haven't tried every religion, but I've studied the bible, Read up on it's backround, compared it with other books, and found it to be the most logical one out there."

And what makes it so impossible that we just haven't discovered how the universe was made yet? Science is CONSTANTLY discovering new things, yet you religious people don't acknowledge this. It may be the most logical, but how do you know there won't be a religion started in the enxt few years that is even more logical, or a scientish can prove a different way that the universe started?

"But it's simple enough to argue that everything around here is the effect of God's workmanship. Please, think about what you say before you say it"

ME think what I say before you think? First off, "air" is scientifically proven (you know what I mean) whereas there being a god is not. And everything is the effect of god's workmanship? Howso? I'm typing this because I WANT TO, bot because "god" told me to. I ate pizza today... god didn't make me, I ate it because I damn well wanted to. I kicked a cat today, why would god make me or even let me kick a cat? He's not stopping me from/making me do(oing) anything. If you can prove he is, be my guest.

"As for the controlling people-- that is simple. Look at the kings and dictators of this century. Take hitler for example. He controlled a country. If he didn't have control over the people, would they really have let him kill 500,000 jews (I'm not sure about the number). Would they really have let him start a war? He was in control-- No question about it."

That's different, and you know it. Hitler talked people into believening what he though. He made them think what he wanted them to do would help them and their country. He convinved them that they were donig the right thing. That's not what you people claim that god did/does, you're claiming that god created us and has complete control over everything we do. Show me ANYHTING that has complete control over things we do, nevermind creates people, and I might believe you.

"Who made the universe? Then why should we believe it's real? "

Who made the universe? We don't know, but that's not to say we'll never know. Scientists are constantly discovering new things, right? Right. So what makes you so confident that they'll never discover who created the universe? And we should believe the universe is real because we live in it. I see the universe, it's all around me. I don't see god anywhere.

And I don't believe you answered the question "Who has ever seen god?"

"You make it sound like it's a conspiricy. And what makes you think that most of the things that have to do with God happen after you die? As far as you know, we all go to Heaven after we die and that's it. Have you read the Bible and tried to understand what it says? If you did, then I'm sure you would realize that God has alot to do with us while we're still in this world."

If god had a lot to do with me right now, I would know it. I do what I want, why I want, when I want, and god doesn't cease me from donig anything, so what exactly is god doing then? Most christians will even admit that you cannot prove god wrong until you die and find out for sure, and it's true, I can't prove god wrong until after I die, right? Which is why no can can prove him wrong, because everyone who would know the truth would be dead, so it's just a conspiracy, yes. You can't prove he's real, can you? If you can, prove it to me. And if you can't, and no one else can, I have to wait until I die, in which case I wouldn't be able to tell you there was no god.

"And why would he do that? If he WAS real, then what would give you the right to tell him what to do, and what makes you think that you have half a clue of what he would do? Just another thought."

LOL... What makes YOU think you'd have half a clue as to what he thinks? I've seen several, several christians (TheGame as an example in GT for sure) say what god thinks, and how do you know? You don't, but you said the bible seems logical to you before... Well doesn't it seem logical to you that if god created me, he'd want me to know he did so?

"There is a God but we denied him. We lose everything."

And if there is a god and he created man so that he could make his own decisions and blah blah blah and he'd be so mad that we'd "lose everything" after we'd die, it's his own damn fault for not making it obvious enough to non-believers that he's actually there ;)

"Also with the Pyramids there's been huge talk about how they were built so perfectly, and stacked."

Well... when you have a ton of people working on the pyramids over a long period of time with lil' efficient machines or whatever, I don't see why they couldn't get it done... I mean, we can build these giant buildings with the machines we have today in... I dunno how much time exactly... but if we can do that, who says they couldn't build such big "monuments" or whatever you wanna call them in a much LONGER period of time with many more people because they had more primitive ways of doing things?

I think it sounds reasonable to me...

and again, as for the big head thingies... I havn't payed much attention to those... The main thing I remember them as is something I kept running into in "Life Force" on NES... :mad2: I'll get you sometime, big stone head things!

Bobcat: "My point is that if science can't prove how these things got here, then who's to say God doesn't exist?"

Science hasn't discovered how the universe was built/made yet, but why is it impossible to think that they will in years from now? Scientists are constantly making new discoveries, right? So who's to say they won't make the discovery we're all fighting about right now?

And no one can really prove god doesn't exist, because like I said above in my reply to the new guy, you'd have to be dead first. I'm living right now, and how can I prove god's not real? I haven't seen him, no one else has that's living, and to my knowledge, he hasn't done **** for me. So I have to wait till I die and see if there's a heaven, or hell eh? Then I'd be dead and it'd be too late to prove you wrong.

I can see that this conversation will go in somewhat the way of the last one.

This argument can never be proved...for now...why argue...:rolleyes:
Born agains these days :rolleyes: