I'm Roman Catholic.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

If God can "just be"... then why isn't it possible for human and other life to "just be"?

Well... Depends on what you mean. According to science, life, the universe, and everything can't "just be" out of thin air. Its supposed to be impossible for something to just appear out of thin air.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing. Are you saying why can't humans have just appeared from nowhere without the help from God? That's supposed to be impossible.

Then only way we could "just be" is if God made us.

Maybe if you are clearer with what exactly you're asking with that question.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Your Religion!
 

Then how can God just be there? That's what doesn't make sense. Something else had to put him/her/it there.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

because that is a rule of where we are.... everything has a beginning and everything has an end, apparently God himself doesn't follow this because he has no beginning or end. Life has a beginning and an end, as proven to us every day.

According to the Bible god was just there... in the beginning he created the heavens and the earth, there is nothing before the beginning, period... so it's no use trying to find out. It's like trying to figure out what a world would look like if it had 7 dimensions instead of the three we have.

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

Following scientifical law, yes, there would have to have been someone to "make" God.

But God doesn't follow scientifical law. That's the point. God just is. Always has been and always will be. Any sort of physical laws we have in the universe, God does not have to follow.

As I said, God is the beginning and the end. Nobody made him, he was already there. He is the Creator.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

And how do we know God doesn't follow scientific laws? That's right, we don't. So... again, I just can't believe he has such "power".

Re: Your Religion!
 

But I'm sure you've seen an all powerful superbeing that can create and control everything, right? :rolleyes:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

If God follows scientifical law, how could he create everything from nothing? How could he perform his miracles?

He couldn't, that's how we know that, at least for God, those "laws" are crap.

In any case, this is probably where at least this part of the debate ends. Once we get to where I'm saying "You just have to have faith" and you're saying "I can't believe such a thing" then there's really nothing we can do to change the other's mind.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

The reason we know he doesn't follow scientiic laws is based off of the question you just asked...

he was there before the begging and he will be here after te end... he is everywhere at all times and can know everything about every person and listen to everybody at the same time... and remember every singe thing ever... he has the power to give life to sand, and he made every mathmatical inch of the earth.... he know's all that has happend and knows all that will happen.

Now tell me, does all of this follow scientific laws?

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

No, because God exists out of time. Don't try even try to imagine it, because it's too complex for us to comprehend (seriously, it'll give you a headache trying to think about it).

God has been, and always will be. When you talk about an all powerful being, you have to try and grasp that He isn't bounded by limitations. I can;t really describe it well, but anyway...

We can't just 'be', because we aren't all powerful beings. We're born, we die, pretty simple concept. We don't have the power to create. Something other than us, (the Creator) however, does have these qualities and this power.

Something, or someone (God), has to have triggered something for the universe to begin, someone eho is not bound by space and time. You say Hydrogen is the basic element of the universe, an element that forms heeavier and more complex elements, but hang on, where did all this Hydrogen come from? If you think about it, all us humans basically made up of electrons, protons and neutrons... Now, say in the event that us coming into being was just a coincidence, do you seriously believe a bunch of electrons, neutrons and protons is suffiecient enough for the creation of a living, breathing creature, that has independant thought that can feel, hear, see and taste things? Something has to have given 'life' to these 'atoms'. I just find it too hard to believe for it to be a coincidence.

For me, the only explanation is that a Gid must exist. I can tell by just reading the Qur'an. Where there are such vivid details about the formation of a zygote in the womb. Remember, this is over 1400 years ago, hundreds of years before any scientiic knowledge was gathered on this subject (and many others). How could anyone, except the Creator know of these intricacies? The Prophet himself was illiterate, and was most definately not a scientist. They didn't have the technology back then to fully understand such detials.

(I wanted to avoid this thread because this has been done so many times before, but I guess I couldn;t resist).

Edit: Something I forgot to mention about the subject of coincidence. Thinking about it, there must have been alot of coincidences to occur, trillions and billions of the 'same' conicidences/miracles. it just isn't plausible.

And about Earth being in the right place at the right time, and why other planets such as Pluto don't have the same luck, is probably something we can't answer for ourselves. Maybe God left these planets and stars here (other than the Sun) for us to gaze at, and admire his creations. Rather like a clue or a hint. As God said himself in the Qur'an, if he wants something to be, he just says Be, and it exists. Sometimes we don't have the answers to everything, and some things we'll never know. You have situations like this in Science too.

Random, you should love how this thread is going, with all the randomness we are discussing.

You were expecting the september 11 explosion to make a new universe? please. :rolleyes:

Thats what I was trying to say, exactly. Its too many coincidences.

Good explanation. Thanks for setting him straight with your knowledge.

I think its brilliantly interesting.

ROFL! Thats hilarious.

How the hell am I supposed to know?? lol, seriously, I have a perfect explanation: "At some point in time, God just WAS" Its impossible for humans to concieve how god came to be, because he didnt "come to be." He has been alive for an eternity, which is impossible for our brains to understand.

(Im just going to use crono's quote to sum up all the quotes about Gods existance, it would take to long to quote everyone of them)
Why? I dont get why its so hard to understand that God just was. Like Ginkasa has been saying, he is the beginning. He is Alpha, there was no one before him to create him, like I have said over and over, God just was.

Good job, Shadow_Link. It makes me posting anything regarding this pretty much obsolete, because you summed up everything I would have said.

[Edit] Attack of the link avatars. sorry about the quote mistake, shadow.

Re: Your Religion!
 

But... we have no facts that a God actually exists. And like Ginkasa said, I guess this is just where the debate ends... neither side can win because both sides do not have the right facts to prove the existence of a God.

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

Although you can also not disprove the existence of God. So you have to question which side the burden of proof lands on? And it lands on neither.

Uh, it was me that posted that, not Ginkasa :)

Re: Your Religion!
 

Yeah. Vampyr, the big quote at the end of your post is from Shadow_Link. Not me.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

But back to replying. My post basically says that there had to be something to create the Hydrogen, and for anything to occur has to point towards a God, a being with immense power. That is the only facts we have on the matter, the fact that Hydrogen didn;t just appear by itself. The fact that electron, neutrons and protons such as ourselves can interact with each other in different ways than say, stars and planets, which are made of the same things we are. There had to be something that allowed life to be breathed into us, and not other things.

I'm really confused by this coincidence stuff really. I mean, with so many coincidences, why isn't it that some new form of life just pops out of nowehere in front of your very own eyes? Coincidences are random right? Then why aren't the sort of coincidnces that supposedly formed us and the universe still occuring till this very day? How can coincidences just stop? It's not as if coincidences have their own path of thought ;).

Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

No actually, I said that one ;)



*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

My bad! :D

Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

Oops, I'm sorry. Lol... like Vamypr I got confused with the avatars.

I get what you're saying about Hydrogen. Of course, right now my knowledge in Physics is quite small, because I'm only in High School... but I'm just not sure what to think anymore. We can't prove there is a God, and we can't prove there isn't one.

And... the coincedence thing is just one of many theories on how things came to be. It may not make sense in some ways, but it's just another idea.

Edit: Heh, "oops" again. It was indeed Ginkasa who said it.

I'll forget about science right now and think about faith.

If you can believe that God just "is", then why can't you believe the universe just "is"? You (err, Ginkasa I believe... crazy avatars) said that the Universe cannot be, that there must be something to create it... so therefor there is a god. However, how can a god exist without being created? And to Shadow Link... it shouldn't be too hard to comprehend, considering humans were the ones who thought of it!

What I believe could be true (based on the logic of the majority on this thread)... is that the universe is your "God". It fits the profile, I guess. If it was a super being, or whatever, it then would not need to be created. And, the universe already had all the materials it needed, floating on one massive canvas (empty space). What I also find interesting, is the "fact" that the universe is infinitely large (or so we think). If it is infinitely large, it would be impossible to have been created by anything, for it'd take an infinite amount of time to create, as it would never be finished... so forth. However, if it "just was" (like what you claim God's origin would be), then it can defy all logic, be any size, anywhere, never ending, never starting. Then we have to go into those apradoxes which I despise so very much under normal circumstances.

And to Shadow Link (I think...) humans can create life, they may not have a real beginning, and they may not have a real end. Just like how your dreams are erased from your memory before you wake (sometimes), perhaps your previous consciousness could be erased. Yet, in dreams we believe it is the present, otherwise we'd wake up.

Now I'm going to have to contradict a previous post of mine and say that maybe we are "dreaming". Yes, it is quite possible that we are just a collective consciousness with the illusions of our mere thought. And, like said in MIB, "we all knew the Earth was flat, and then we all knew the Earth was the center of the universe". I quote that for a really awkward reason. And that reason is moderately related to Vampyr's crazy idea that we have to "believe" something for it to be true (or something like that). Basically, perhaps the Earth WAS flat until proven differently, and perhaps the Earth WAS the center of the universe.. so forth. But, once people with super high charisma can convince otherwise, the majority BELIEVES otherwise, and therefor the universe changes.

Blah blah, contradict this... contradict that. Basically, since we keep looking far into the universe, we keep discovering infinite space. That space is limited by our majority belief. And since our majority has the potential of believing an infinite amount of possibilities... the universe therefor has the potential of being infinitely large.


Right now, I believe that I am a student that needs to find a job, is obsessed with philosophy and therefor animé, and am uncertain about my future. It'll be hard to convince me otherwise. I don't want to believe more than that... and I don't want to know "the origin". However, I do admit that it is fun to figure it out (yes, I had problem solver books as a child).


Finally:
Ugh, do you see what it's done to me?

Aaand: If the majority of humans did not believe in God, would it die?

Re: Your Religion!
 

Oh... but you can't do that. Faith and science are intertwined. They are one in the same. As Albert Einstein said:

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

Of course. Humans fund religion, not God.

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

Funny that you replied to the very first and last sentences of my post ¦¬Þ.

Re: Your Religion!
 

No, sir. Obviously, the 9/11 explosion would be minor to the 'big bang.' Which makes it that much harder to believe that an explosion could cause the order seen int the universe and on this planet.
An explosion is an explosion.
Things go BOOM!



Never have.
Never will.
Were you trying to make a point? :wtf:

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

You're wrong. An explosion just isn't an explosion. You mean to tell me that an Hydrogen-Bomb Explosion is just the same as the explosions made on 9/11? All you're doing is comparing size, you need to look at the physics of the different reactions in the explosions. An explosion from an.. H-Bomb, let's say, is completely different because it uses different processes. Also, as I stated before... those who do not have even a slight understanding of physics will probably completely deny this.

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

The point is a lot of religious people (you for example) say they find it hard to believe that everything was created from a huge explosion (or the big bang theory) because they've never seen anything like that before and it seems too coincidental. Of course, you believe in god though, so I assume you've seen a superbeing bla bla bla before then?

And does nobody else think that the chances that we just haven't figured out how everything was created is a lot more likely than everything that has been thrown about (god, big bang, etc)? Just because god seems to be the most simple and best answer from the different theories that we know about RIGHT NOW doesn't mean it's true.

Re: Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

Not only that, but it was one of the first guesses. That makes it even more potentially innacurate. Ever heard of an educated guess, anyone?

God is not a "guess." Christians, Jews, and Muslims (those that are truly faithful anyway) do not just go around saying "How was the universe made? Maybe its some divine being called 'God'."


We say it as fact because we know He did. There is no guessing in faith.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Your Religion!
 

Oho! Mah bad, captain! Y'mean you know God exists? Do tell me how it is true, all-seeing master! *stabs self a couple times... names the stabbing "sarcasm" and dies of it*

No need to type it twice...


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

You're missing the point. Faith is belief in the absence of proof. If there was proof that God exists, there would be no reason for faith. Faith is truth beyond logic and reason in the eyes of the beholder.

Physics is also not the beginning and end of the universe. I forget which atom, but in a certain atom it is physically impossible for 2 electrons to switch levels. Guess what? They do. There is no scientist on earth who can figure out why everything they know tell them it can't happen, and it does.

There is so much in this universe that we have no answers for. Do not assume that there is no God just because we can't prove he exists.

You do NOT KNOW god exists Ginkasa. That's bull****. You THINK he does. It's not a fact.

Yes, I do KNOW he exists. You trying to convince me otherwise is what's "bull****" because its not going to happen. Taking this further will amount to nothing more than us flaming each other so I see no reason to.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Your Religion!
 

Wow, how did I miss this one?

You see the face on the TV screen
coming at you every Sunday
see that face on the billboard
that man is me

On the cover of the magazine
there's no question why I'm smiling
you buy a piece of paradise
you buy a piece of me

I'll get you everything you wanted
I'll get you everything you need
don't need to believe in hereafter
just believe in me

Cos Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
and he's been telling me
everything is alright

I believe in the family
with my ever loving wife beside me
but she don't know about my girlfriend
or the man I met last night

Do you believe in God
cos that's what I'm selling
and if you wanna get to heaven
I'll see you right

You won't even have to leave your house
or get outta your chair
you don't even have to touch that dial
cos I'm everywhere

And Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
well he's been telling me
everything's gonna be alright

Won't find me practising what I'm preaching
won't find me making no sacrifice
but I can get you a pocketful of miracles
if you promise to be good, try to be nice
God will take good care of you
just do as I say, don't do as I do

I'm counting my blessings,
I've found true happiness
cos I'm getting richer, day by day
you can find me in the phone book,
just call my toll free number
you can do it anyway you want
just do it right away

There'll be no doubt in your mind
you'll believe everything I'm saying
if you wanna get closer to him
get on your knees and start paying

Cos Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
well he's been telling me
everything's gonna be alright, alright

Jesus he knows me
Jesus he knows me, you know...

Re: Your Religion!
 

Are all the religious people here like that? Does everyone just deny the fact that it's possible there is no god?

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

Chris, did you bother to read my post? It explains exactly why those who believe in God KNOW he exists.

I read your post and it doesn't tell me how somebody can say they KNOW god exists when they don't KNOW. Just because someone has faith in something doesn't make it true. They THINK it's true but they don't know. What if I'm lead to believe that I'm going to grow 9 feet tomorrow and I have faith in that... I don't KNOW I will grow 9 feet tomorrow, I think I will.

Re: Your Religion!
 

You used a bad example... use somthing you already do 'know' will happen that you don't question.

Will you have a hard time sleeping tonight just because you may or may not wake up? Do you and will you live every moment of your life like it's your last? If you seriously answerd the above questions you still made an assumption based off of faith. It doesn't matter if you will have a hard time sleeping tonight if I jump through your window right now and shoot you in the head.

Faith is believing in somthing... faith is knowing. Do you know what you are going to do tomorrow morning? Do you know if HHH will eventually lose the belt? These are questions you have probably answerd already but I'm just presenting a source of doubt.

Nobody knows anything if nobody has faith...

Re: Your Religion!
 

I don't think you understand the meaning of faith when used in religious situations.

Re: Re: Your Religion!
 

I understand faith, and I understand that faith is belief in a questionable situation... I also understand that nobody knows the answer to a questionable situation. You may highly believe you are correct, and you may be very accurate... but nobody knows something until it is proven without flaw.

This thread was made to be open to debate, Strangler. Are you going to discount my belief that there "may be no god", which therefor would put doubt in what you consider fact... or will you understand and respect the differences?

Hey, it's that, or I start saying that I KNOW that "God" doesn't exist, and you won't be able to disagree.

P.S. I understand that you quoted someone else, but I feel your comment was also made toward me ¦¬Þ