New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

This topic was on the radio earlier this morning, and not all that surprisingly it popped up on Digg.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,7039288.story

I figure this is slightly less ambiguous to discuss rather than tackling the subject of drugs. Plus I have added an attached poll for the apathetic.

I'm in America...I know GT has a pretty diverse group of members, so if you are from Europe or wherever tell us what your drinking age is and how you feel.

And, opinions are always welcome. Why should the drinking age be changed, or what should be the deciding factor.

Discuss.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

The issue with harmful behaviors concerning drinking in America is more of a cultural issue than a law issue. I'm not so sure if a change in the legality of underage drinking would change the cultural aspect of this problem.

That being said, I've given this issue a great deal of thought in the past, and haven't been able to decide on a position.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

So, a question to maybe ask is:

If we lowered or absolved the drinking age would we remove the mysticism associated with drinking and in effect lower the amount of alcohol abuse amongst teenagers?

Another fair question to ask is: with no drinking age would teens drink under more supervised/safer environments?

Changing the drinking age could, over time, change the cultural views on alcohol.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I think it would. After I turned 21 I've had no urge to drink.

It should be 18 if only because that's when one legally becomes an adult. Either make 21 the new age for that or 18 for being able to drink.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Why is there no "19"?
Blasphemy.

Anyways, I think 19 is the pefect age to have it be legal. It works pretty damn fine here in BC, and if you think about it - it makes sense.


18, I think is too early. Why? Kids can still be in highschool when they're 18 - if their birthday falls in the first few months, and I think that could make things pretty tragic for a few people.

I don't see why you're able to pick the leader of your country when you're 18 (or in some cases younger) yet your country doesn't allowe you to consume alcohol for another 3 years after that.

I'm a firm believer in "The sooner you drink, the sooner it gets out of your system". I'm 21 now, and I'm pretty much fed up with bars and clubs because I've been to them for the past 2 years. And there are adults in the US who can just legally go to them now, and might not get sick of them until their mid-20's.

I think having the age at 21 is really ridiculous in the first place. What's so significant about 21? You're already an adult, you're already in University or College, you're already possibly living on your own, so why can't you go to a bar if you want to?

Silly, silly laws.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

19 is perfect.

Edit poll: 19 added.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

So nothing about kids drinking has anything to do with this being the first time they're away from parental control? There was a study a while back where most Americans considered an "adult" to be someone 25 or older, and I completely agree.

With the rare exception here and there, most 18-year old kids have finally left the house, but have yet to take on any responsibility that actual adults have. They have this feeling they're all grown up as they continue to call home and ask for money, and don't need to worry about their health insurance, or life insurance plan, or trying to get enough money to cover their mortgage, or get their new baby the vaccinates he or she needs.

Personally, I think the mix of being away from home for the first time without having any responsibility is the perfect mix for partying, and partying brings alcohol. College kids will drink illegally, so I don't see how somehow legalizing it will get it out of their system faster. Same amount of problems, only they don't need to go through extra channels to get it.

I don't mind it being 21. I really think they just need to make up their mind. I don't agree with the inconsistency with being able to drive a car at 16, which can easily kill others, vote at 18, drink at 21, and then finally get your "No longer a hazard to society" car insurance drop at 25. They should pick an age and stick with it.

However, going back to the 25 year old being an adult mentality, I do believe the only way to stop college drinking, if it's such a problem, is to raise the drinking age to 25. Most people will be three years out of college by the time they can legally drink, and then you don't need to worry about all the immaturity being combined with alcohol, and it would be much, much easier to bust underage drinking.

That said, being 23 I will not give up scotch and beer for 2 years, but I have watched many Marine buddies become alcoholics, and then came back to college at 22 to watch many young 18 year olds not be all too smart when it comes to drinking... specifically driving.

If you ask me, leave the drinking age where it's at, and allow college kids to get plastered and get alcohol poisoning. I don't care if someone drinks until they are passed out on the floor puking... as long as it's not my house. I think the much bigger problem is the ones who drink and drive, and that includes much more than college kids.

It's pretty sad when 1 in 8 people in Minnesota has been convicted of a DWI. I never liked the current system, 0.08%. Oh, but that changes per person, so no one can be sure. I went to a beer festival not that long ago, and they did the smartest thing I've ever seen: Free breathalyzers as you leave. So you thought you were sober, blew 0.1%, the honest man (or woman) can return to the festival, enjoy some music and grab a brat, and wait it out. I think breathalyzers should be available to all, so the people drinking and driving are deliberately doing it, and the honest person who feels like having a drink or two at the bar before going home isn't intentionally breaking the law and endangering the lives of others. If that's such a problem, then why not make it illegal to drink and drive? Force DDs, cab rides, and buses, at least then people don't have to chance it, and again, it doesn't make people want to drive to the bar, thinking they'll be good to drive home.

That's my 2 cents, but you didn't give me the option of raising the drinking age, so I didn't vote.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

That's a good point, and I think it can go both ways. Throughout your entire post you treat alcohol like something that people need to abuse, and that is part of the complex social problem with alcohol. Why can't someone just enjoy a beer, I know I do. Should I have to wait till I am 25 to enjoy a beer?

I think if we lowered the drinking age we would possibly change our social outlook on alcohol. Maybe kids would drink socially with their parents at an early age and learn their limits and pick up some responsibility on the way to college. This way they don't drive to frat parties or stay under the radar or exploit the fact that they are at college and they can drink because their parents aren't there.

The statistics are a pretty good indication that having a drinking age of 21 isn't stopping people who are 18, 16, or even 14 from drinking. Call me skeptical but people will still get alcohol if the drinking age is 25. And, all those cornfield campuses go out of there way to not bust kids from drinking. There's nothing to do in a field on weekends, except drink. Colleges know this. Frat life has become a social norm amongst colleges in America, and I would assuem elsewhere. This is a deeply rooted social issue and in many ways casts a negative light on people who don't necessarily want to binge drink but just want to enjoy alcohol.

I'm all about upping the penalty on drunk driving. I think if you are driving drunk you should be tried for attempted murder, because that's what it is; it's like firing bullets into a forest, you may luck out and not hit anybody, or you might kill someone.

This all goes back to the social mysticism around alcohol. With the parents gone kids go crazy! Nothing like getting wasted. I can think of very few freshman including myself who did not go over their limit some point during fresman year.

Breathalizers are a good idea. Again, I completely agree that driving drunk should carry larger penalties.



Anyway, the bottom line is that alcohol is a drink. Just like soda, just like water, just like coffee. And, in moderation it is not a bad thing. Red wine has been shown to have health advantages, beer tastes good, and hard liquor can be enjoyed...yes, enjoyed, without getting drunk. If we could somehow remove the mysticism surrounding alcohol and remind people that you don't have to drink to get drunk to enjoy alcohol, maybe more people would drink responsibly. I think at the end of the day the people who want to abuse alcohol are going to abuse alcohol. And, I think a lot of people who are free from their parents get lost in the herd and end up going over their limits or making poor choices.

And yeah, I'm 20 and I want to be able to enjoy a beer. Not a shitty watered down beer...but a delcious, craft brewed beer. Something I can drink during a football game or with a meal. But that's too much to ask for in America.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I was looking up a bunch of info that I had heard earlier to present to you guys when I found this link which pretty much summarized everything really well.

and here here are some nifty stats

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Raise the age to 25, and any minor caught within 50 metres of alcohol is arrested and shot and made a spectacle of.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I say 18 because at 18 you're allowed to join the army.

If you're old enough to die overseas for your military, you're old enough to drink.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

You could also argue that if the first thing someone does in their adult life is sign away years of their rights, they are not in sound mind and shouldn't be given alcohol :p

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Was going to post that too. It's an old cliche reason, but it's absolutely correct. You're legally an adult, it's bordering on discrimination to make you wait until your 21.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I believe in consistency. If you are an adult at 18, then you should have all the rights of an adult. If not, switch everything to 21, but it should be consistent.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

If 18, 19, and 20 year-olds were smart enough, they would realize they have the power to vote and thus the power to coerce their politicians into changing this law that discriminates against them and takes away a freedom that everyone else enjoys freely.

Unfortunately they're spending too much time trying to find a fake ID, buying alcohol illegally, and then binge drinking to do anything smart like that. :p

I include myself in that group, when I was that age.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Okay, I have been given this a lot of thought lately also, and since im only 21 now I have recent experience on the matter. While I might have felt differently a few years ago, after some thought, I dont think lowering the drinking age to 18 will make kids drink less often, in less quantities, or less at all. When I drank underage, I never thought "Since im not suppoused to be doing this, im going to drink a LOT" I can see where the other side comes from, im actually going to do something I normally dont do and agree with Bond here. Its more of a cultural issue. Kids like to drink, and they like to do it a lot, especially college aged kids. I mean, when you turned 21 and it was legal to drink, did you all of a sudden stop drinking large amounts? Of course not, its still fun to drink a lot wether its legal or not. If this happens (which it absolutley wont happen in the foreseeable future, no way whatsoever), I feel it will just lead to more DUI deaths.

There were nights in my youth when I wanted to drink, but couldnt get alcohol. I can only imagine how much more I would have drank if I could have legally bought it.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

This is what I basically think it comes down to: Upbringing. Nothing more, nothing less. You can make an argument that peer pressure is a factor, but if the kid is brought up right by the parents with proper morals and all that, peer pressure won't effect them as much, as their choice in friends might be more "proper".

Kids will do one of two things, depending on how their raised: Be like their parents because their parents do it; or be nothing like their parents because they resent their parents for doing something.

I think the problem is that for the majority, nobody parents kids anymore. Which leaves a vast group of kids being raised by TV, and their friends parents, which is bad in itself, because another person's mom and dad won't instill the same values on you as they would with their own kids.

There is nothing - at all - you can ever do to get rid of drinking and driving. Kids will do it, adults will do it, premiers will do it. It's just something that will happen. If you don't want your kids to drink and drive, give them ultimatums as a parents, talk to your kids. Be a fucking parent to them, don't blame a substance they went to because either A) You drink all the time as a parent or B) Never took the time out of your busy schedule to even talk to your kids about the seriousness of alcohol consumption.

The problem lies only in parenting. That's my two cents.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I agree with the 18-year old logic; if you are an "adult" at 18 by law, you should be able to drink. Otherwise, you're not really an adult....I'm talking about by legal definition by the way, not the subjective age at which someone becomes an adult.

Now, ideally, I'd like to see the drinking age go away altogether. But it won't happen because people will not accept personal responsibility. Here are the big benefits I see of removing the drinking age or removing penalties from catching minors drinking:
-kids will drink in safer or supervised environments
-kids won't be afraid to call their parents if they are drinking (this is a social stigma...some parents would be upset if their child drank, some wouldn't)
-we can slowly instill the idea that alcohol is not a magical drink at a young age

alcohol is a drink...and, when used in excess can have problematic results. same goes with sugar, or caffeine, or speeding.


In my ideal world, my fairy tale, we would charge DUI offenders with attempted murder - because that is what a DUI is.

Less drunks on the road, more teens drinking at home where they can be supervised. Less trouble.

The fact is, people will ALWAYS abuse alcohol. It does not matter what restrictions you have in place....people do not like moderation. Most everyone who drinks that I know have drank too much or gone past their limit. I guess it is part of our social culture surrounding drinking. I'd rather see people pushing that limit in a supervised environment rather than sneaking around or going to frat parties.


Anyway...that's my 2 cents on a subject we will not be able to resolve.

PS I'll be 21 in a few months....I'm excited to be able to go buy beer without going through someone.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

In that case, even driving sober should be considered attempted murder. The number of people who die from vehicle accidents every year is so high I can't believe it isn't talked about more. It's amazing to me that any of us are even allowed to drive vehicles, considering how dangerous it is.

I guess driving drunk would then be considered aggravated attempted murder?

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Seriously, there are so many people who should not be allowed to drive a vehicle (like a lot of my friends). There's also a lot of 80+ citizens who should have their license revoked.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

When I said any of us, I meant that -- you, me, and everyone else should not be allowed to drive. Everyone thinks they're the best driver in the world.

I think what we should do is replace our individual driving system with the mass transportation system from Minority Report. Anyone remember that?

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I always thought if MADD wanted to accomplish something they would push to raise the driving age. How many 15 and 16 year-old kids use level-headed rationalization while driving?

But more to the point, driving is already deadly...adding alcohol to the mix only escalates the problem. I'd call it "unintentional attempted murder." I think it would be reasonable to charge the bar or party host for letting someone drive home drunk too. What is the person called who helps someone plan a murder? "Accomplice in murder." That sounds about right.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Pretty bad reasoning. The amount of people who are alive that die is also staggering, but you don't outlaw living. You could also say that people walking out the front door of their house are putting themselves and others in danger, but you don't outlaw going outside just because accidents happen.

There's a difference between going outside and going outside holding the trigger down a fully loaded machine gun, which is comparable to driving sober or driving drunk.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Okay, I see your point KillerGremlein, but just because the drinking age is lowered does not mean kids are all of a sudden only going to drink at home with the parents in a controlled environment...frat parties will still go on, and kids will still drink in excessive and or potentially dangerous amounts...

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Exactly. And whenever the government tries to control culture it just doesn't work (see: prohibition). I think lawmakers should view this issue through a very utilitarian mindset, and that will result in the maximizing of the good for all citizens.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I assume that to be the case....I doubt any age restriction will stop binge drinking or abusive drinking. It just goes hand-in-hand with college, and with the freedom of being away from home. Oddly though, I still think we could help a percentage of people by exposing them to alcohol at a younger age or in a safer environment. It has been my experience/observation that college is not the best place to learn your drinking limitations.

I do think that many people try to stay a few drinks below their limit...I know I do. When I want to drink to get drunk I try to drink as few drinks as possible and get in that comfortable zone. I'd rather not wake up with a splitting hangover. But I also enjoy drinking a beer with dinner...I enjoy wine...and I'm trying to start to enjoy hard liquor. You don't have to drink in excess to enjoy alcohol. Beer and wine are sophisticated drinks that can be enjoyed with a meal.


Like Bond said, I think this is a complex social problem. Hence why I think we should keep the drinking age at 18 or 21.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

Ok, first off let me clarify and say that I was being glib and I don't really think that driving should be made illegal. Life as we know it wouldn't exist without vehicles, so we can't just outlaw them even if we could. (Sound familiar to drinking?)

My intention was to bring up just how dangerous driving is. Assuming the stats from Acebot's link that 17,448 died in 2001 from alcohol related vehicle accidents and the stat from my link that 43,200/year is also from 2001, that means 40% of vehicle deaths were related to alcohol. That still leaves 25,752 deaths from sober drivers, and it's not like you can really separate getting drunk from the driving part. The deaths caused by drinking and walking home is virtually zero compared to driving drunk. Driving is still the dangerous part of the equation here. So your analogy doesn't really hold up.

A lot more can be done to make driving safer that simply isn't done because people would throw a hissy fit if it were implemented. Do you have red light cameras around where you are? I think they're great, but the amount of people who bitch and moan about getting caught running red lights is laughable. Here's an idea, guys -- don't run red lights!

But I digress. I think we should implement similar systems to control speeding. Speeding cameras are a simple method. We could also introduce chips that force cars to not go over a posted speed limit. These are easily feasible systems. The speeding cameras have been tried from over a decade ago near here. But what happened? The public outcry put it out of commission.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I guess I should make another debate thread about this, but I'm not very good at starting discussions.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I say make the drinking age 2. They have to start somewhere.

Reminds me of the summer, I taught pre-school kids shoulders. :D

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I think that's why lawmakers just need to look at detailed statistics and analysis of those statistics, and craft a law that makes the drinking age (whatever), that will do the most good and the least harm. I don't see how one can go about this issue other than a purely utilitarian way.

That being said, the government is probably the least effective institution to help substance abuse problems in America. Like Typhoid said, it's families, it's private organizations, communities, etc. They have been, and always will be, far more effective than any law or government. And those private people and organizations can change the culture, but the government can't.

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

I will admit, that in many cases (not all), kids who grew up with strict parents then all of a sudden go away to college, are oftentimes the wildest because their not used to it. People who had been casually exposed to drinking at an earlier time are less likely to go ape shit crazy in college.

Then there's the other side, those that actually continue to abide by their parents rules after they are out of the house...lame!

Re: New Political Debate: Drinking Age
 

What's wrong with that?