Buyng a Gun
 

I'm purchasing a home defense weapon in the near future. I've owned guns before, but they were only a .22 rifle and a 30/6 hunting rifle, both of which not ideal for home defense. I'm looking for something that doesn't involve much aiming or thinking beyond turning the safety off and zero chance of misfire/jamming.

So far I've broken it down to these:

Mossberg 590A1 - These have been banging down doors in the Middle East for a decade. Easy to use, reliable and powerful. Con - Big and might be hard to maneuver and store. Plus - Plenty of accessories, like attachable flashlights, which are perfect for late night home defense.




Taurus "The Judge" .45/.410 pistol



The benefit of this weapon is that it fires either .45 caliber rounds, a proven man-stopper, or .410 shotgun shells with a wide area of affect. Con - The .410 shells don't have much stopping power, but after the first disorienting and very painful .410 round each subsequent chamber can be loaded with .45. The .410 gives you time to aim the .45 if necessary. Plus - Its small and very versatile.


SAIGA 12 Shotgun



Well... just %$&@ing look at it! It even looks like it might kill you by looking at its picture.

J/K - I'm really between the Mossberg and the Taurus. My hope is that I'll never have to touch either one I choose, beyond maintenance and learning how to operate it properly.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I would go for the Taurus.

The shotgun seems as likely to damage your own property as it is the intruder.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Did something happen to cause you to want a crazy hardcore shotgun, or did just think "Well, you never know?"

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'm not interested in the Mossberg because its "crazy hardcore", but only because its rated as very reliable and easy to use. I'm also interested in the version without the stock and the standard Mossberg 500 depending on cost (the 500 is only about $200). I just thought if I'm going to get a shotgun for home defense I might as well get the one that will liquefy a man's torso if the need arises.

The idea is that I'm not going to have time to think or even really aim. My blood pressure will be through the roof with adrenaline pumping, and I want to know that if I pull the trigger the intruder is 1) going to get hit and 2) is not going to need a second round.

As for the need for this, I think the fact I'm having a kid has made me bite the bullet on buying a home-defense weapon. I first got the itch when I got married, but now with a kid on the way there is just so much to lose if some scumbag invades my home.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

It's the whole torso liquefying thing that bothers me. Checked out a video for the Taurus. Ouch. Perhaps its just me but if you really must have a gun, number one it would be used to scare someone off, and number two you shoot to injure and not kill...thus taking the time to learn how to use your killing device. Happen to know the statistics of unarmed vs armed break-ins? A shotgun to the chest of a kid trying to nick your Xbox is a bit harsh.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

No offense Teuth, but I'm going to chalk that up to you not having a family or a home of your own yet. Trust me, if you think someone has broken into your home the last thing your worried about is aiming to injure. If I have to shoot, I want that person to blow to pieces. I can't assume the intent on the intruder and anyone would be stupid to do so.

That said, the one time I thought someone broke into my house my first reaction was to first announce that I had a gun and then I told the non-existent intruder that if they left now nothing would happen. (A branch broke a window)

After I waited and didn't hear anyone leaving, I headed down stairs to check things out. I was never so scared in my life and I definitely would not have the capacity to rationally "aim to wound" regardless of training with the weapon (I am trained with guns, BTW, over 20 hours total). At the time, I felt completely helpless: "What if he has a gun?" was all I was thinking and I raced to the kitchen to grab a knife before exploring any further.

Bottom-line: If someone breaks into my house I assume they are threatening my safety and the safety of those I love. If I see someone I shoot to hit the target, and STOP the target, and I want a weapon that will make it difficult to fail at that goal.

If someone doesn't want to get shot then they shouldn't invade someone else's home. Thieves should be well aware of the risks they take.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'm a firm believer in pacifism, and only would suggest a gun for hunting - I did however work out some math the other day - albeit no doubt incorrectly:

There is a break in in the US every 15 seconds, which after you do all of the tedious mathworking, means that everyone in the US (based on the numbers) will be broken into every 14 years.


Edit: And Maybe just because it's Canada and we don't feel we constantly need guns for every situation; someone tried to break into my dad's house and failed. Instead of buying a gun, he spent money on preventing ways people can break into the house. And to me that actually makes a lot more sense. Why buy a gun, if you can just buy alarm systems, knob-to-floor door stops or heavy duty deadbolts and latches.

Guns should be for hunting.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I agree with the Typh.

I'm pretty firmly against guns in the home. If you're doing it for protection you don't really need a shotgun.

Go for the Taurus if you have to pick, otherwise I get the impression that you kinda want to kill somebody (since shotguns tear people apart).

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I could be wrong on this, but I think that is tricky legal ground. You have a right to defend your home against a threat, but only to a point. I can't see a jury taking kindly to a kid breaking into your house to steal beer and you blow him to pieces.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

What in the world are you talking about? I want to KILL SOMEONE? Are you nuts? Did you ready anything I wrote? This is why its so hard to have a discussion with some people.

I want to PROTECT MY FAMILY. I will regret having to kill someone to do so, but I certainly will not avoid killing at all costs. The whole idea of a home defense firearm is to take out the invader as quickly and easily as possible, because the more hurdles you put in front of that goal, the more likely you are to get shot/killed by the invader.

In any case, if I hit someone with a .45 bullet, they're just as dead as they would be if I hit them with buckshot. I just have a higher chance of missing.

Going with the shotgun. This actually helped a lot!

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

If you just splurge on a predator drone, and then employ the team to monitor your block 24/7, I think you'd be a lot safer than if you just got a shotgun. I don't think you're doing everything you can to protect your family here.

I can see it now, some crackhead breaks into your house armed with one of your lamps, and you blow him to pieces with a mossberg. What's that, 20-life for murder? Because you surely can't get away with "I was defending myself from the threatening crackhead who had a lamp in his hand by blowing half of his torso all over my living room" in most cases.



You should get a hummer while you're at it.
Oh, and maybe a mesh-backed baseball hat and a tribal tattoo! :ohreilly:


Edit: Besides, buying a gun as a defense instead of buying actual defenses for your house, just seems to me to be a lot more that you want some bad-ass talking point you can always tell people. Like "Hey, I have a gun, you guys. And it's a mossberg!" instead of saying "Yeah, we just got some new alarm system." Because bragging about an alarm system isn't as cool.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

There is a "no retreat" law in PA, I believe. If someone breaks into my house, I can kill them if they do not exit the home when given the chance.

Again, I'm not talking about stalking someone through my house silently with night-vision goggles. I'm talking about giving fair warning and then if they refuse to back down, should I not assume they expect to attack me?

This is common sense.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

:rolleyes:

No. Its not. Its self-defense.

Yes you can. Honestly, how much thinking do you think is going on in these cases? Am I taking the time to see if they have a lamp or a gun? In the dark? If the lights are on, that's one thing, but even then the invader takes his life in his own hands.

Oh grow up.

Typh, I've had guns my whole life. Have you ever heard me brag about being a gun owner? No. Lets not be childish about this. The reason I'm attracted to the Mossberg isn't because its in MW2... its because ots the more reliable shotgun on the market, and that's what you want in a home defense weapon.

The funniest part about this argument is how it has degraded. No one seems to want to discuss the points I've made, but instead want to assume I a) want to shoot people or 2) want to be a redneck jackass. Amazing.

People seem more sympathetic to the scumbag invader than the person trying to defend his home. That's sad.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Totally with you here - it would be hard to pacify your way out of an armed robbery. I mean, chances are it's never going to happen - if someone breaks into your house it's probably going to happen during the day when no one is at home.

But if someone does break into your house while you're they're - either your car is in the driveway or it's in the middle of the night, they've already considered the fact that they will encounter you, and what they will do when that happens.

I also don't know why we are assuming it's going to be a kid wanting an xbox or a 6 pack. Does that ever happen?

That being said, I think the best line of defense is to pay to have ADT installed, have a sign outside saying you have ADT, and a gun in your bedroom. If you hear someone breaking in, lock your door, sit with a gun aimed at it, and wait for the police to get there.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Looking at the thread, I think we are all creating situations that are sympathetic to our position. I'm assuming the worst; a serial murderer/rapist in the dead of night with the lights off. Those in opposition seem to be assuming the best of the situation; a strung out unfortunate just trying to get cash for his next hit.

In any case, I think its a mistake to assume the intention of the invader. No one can read minds. So instead, lets list the potential situations and appropriate responses.

Your home is invaded/you think your home has been invaded

1) Call the police

2) Retrieve you firearm from its secure but easily attainable location, turn off safety

3) Turn on as many lights as possible from upstairs

3) Check on loved ones to make sure everyone is secure and it isn't anyone living there who has made you think your home has been invaded.

4) Announce from the top of the stairs that you are aware of the invasion at the top of the stairs, and that you are armed and have called the police. Advise that the invaders are to leave immediately if they don't want to get shot or arrested.

5) Remain at the top of the stairs, shotgun aimed towards the first floor, and wait for the police to arrive.

In most cases, I believe this how the situation would be resolved. The gun gives you the opportunity to cut off points of entry to the upper level without directly confronting your assailant. Without the gun, I feel I would be forced to confront the invader because without a weapon/firearm I'm a sitting duck.

You are confronted by the invader

In this situation I think the biggest factor is whether or not you could get the lights on. If the lights are on, you can see the invader and make split-second judgment calls on intent of action. Without lights, anything could be threatening.

Lights On

Aim the weapon at the invader and yell "Don't move!" If the invader stops, ask him to put his arms in the air and remain there until the police arrive. If the invader makes a break for it, let him go. If the invader makes a move towards you or takes any action you make think could be to pull a weapon: Shoot.

Lights Off

You see a silhouette of a man moving. Yell "Don't move!". If the man stops, turn on the lights and wait for the police to arrive. If the man moves: Shoot. In the dark, I can't honestly say I could safely assume any intent of action, and I am forced to assume the worst.

Do these situations sound reasonable? If not, what would your alternatives be?

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

That's not bad, but step 0 is to already have an extremely loud alarm system that sounds off whenever any doors or windows are opened... especially if you're in a 2 story house. If the alarm goes off, then follow the steps you listed... if the alarm doesn't go off, then quit being scared and go down and comfront whatever you feel the threat may be.

If you don't trust your alarm system to efficiently tell when your house has been breached, then get a better alarm system.

If you're still afraid to see what went bump in the night, take kick boxing classes.

BTW, I also want a gun.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I like the SAIGA, excellent in the event of a full scale zombie apocalypse.
It also looks bad ass, just needs a rifle scope. :p

The revolvers barrel is too short and it looks stupid.
If your going to get a revolver go all out and get the one Dirty Harry uses.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

If I had a gun it would be one like Vash the Stampede uses. Unfortunately, I don't think it's even mechanically possible.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

No offense, but if you are in a situation where you are contemplating scenarios about serial rapists or home invaders coming into your home, maybe you live in a bad place in general.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Home invasions can happen anywhere. My parents have been robbed three times (in over 30 years) and they live in Thornton, PA. If it doesn't have the lowest crime rate in the country, its close.

Its not a matter of where, but when. As Typh said, it will happen eventually, but most likely when no one is home. I just worry about the times when we're home. Again, I hope I never have to touch the thing.

http://www.articledashboard.com/Arti...tistics/981639

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'd like to move to a place where it doesn't happen. :p

I think the shotgun is a good choice - my only qualm is if you miss you're going to do some serious damage to your house. :lolz:

I would still consider getting ADT, though, if you don't have it already. Most thieves are extremely scared of getting caught, and just the sign outside will be enough to deter them, let alone if an alarm went off.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

A thought just occurred. You could be like a normal person and get a dog.


Not only will dogs protect your home but they love you so much! Dogs are a burglary deterrent and a good weapon should burglary not be deterred.


Edit: or a dog and a revolver.

I think buying shotguns for home defense is an icky idea...the mess...

I'm curious as to why our thoughts of home invasion defense are so different? Alarm system and/or dog instantly springs to my mind...not so much firearms. Maybe a blunt weapon.

I don't think it's the fact that I don't have a wife and kid that makes me different. If I had kids I definitely would not want a gun in my house.
Maybe it comes down to our respective levels of paranoia. I currently have no alarm system and my dog just died yet I still manage to sleep just fine at night.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

If only that dog could kill other people with bullets. :ohreilly:

We need some genetic modification, here.

Either that, or we need to find a way to make guns love you.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Even if he hits hes going to do damage to his house.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

For practicality: the Taurus

For fun: The Mossberg

I figure if you're going to buy it you are going to educate/practice using it. If you're taking it to a range might as well go with the gun that will provide the most satisfaction.

I don't know much about guns, but you can load the 12 gauge with shells that have buckshot and shells that fire a single bullet, correct? I think that gives the gun versatility.

Also, my understanding is that shotguns are less lethal at range than a pistol, especially a magnum firing big ass .45 caliber rounds. Frankly, I'd rather be shot at with the shotgun....

Also, fuck this pacifism shit. If someone is poking around in your house uninvited, I say they deserve to get shot. And that's not sarcasm. This is America, not Canada. When people break in bad things happen. Getting a gun is on my to-do list, once I get some money and a more permanent place to call home.



Even if you did get 20 years...it would be a cool, calm 20 years...knowing your wife and kid/s are safe.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

But then you'd be sleepless every night in prison wondering if a rapists has broken into your house to get your wife :P

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We have an alarm system...we never set it/use it. I maintain alarm systems are used when people go on vacation and as plot devices in horror movies.

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Assuming someone else doesn't try break in during the 20 years you're in prison, which is likely considering - as stated before - it's likely to happen based on numbers alone to each person in the US every 14 years.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

If I had guns in my home I'd make sure my wife was educated in how to use them. :p

I'm not pro-imposing guns on people. I am all for alternative forms of home security; whatever makes you feel safe, you know? For me, personally, I want to get into guns mostly as a hobby. I wouldn't mind learning how to use a firearm at a shooting range and turning that into a hobby. A lot of cool engineering goes into firearms and overall it is a legit sport/hobby. For me, I'd probably keep a small firearm in my home just because you never know what is going to happen. I would pray that I would never ever be in a situation where I would have to use the weapon, especially against another human being. I don't know if I could live with myself after having to defend myself. I'd definitely need some therapy. But at the end of the day, having a hobby and being able to defend yourself sounds like a win-win to me.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Just curious how that one will look in court.

Judge: "Did you ask the intruder to leave before firing?"
You: "Of course."
Judge: "Did anyone witness you saying this?"
You: "Yep, the intruder did."

Seems hard to prove. Regardless, I'd recommend the shotgun. Your goal is not to find the best weapon to clear a house with, but find the best weapon to get an intruder to leave your house. Shotguns have a psychological factor to them like you wouldn't believe. Simply listening to a pump action shotgun (even empty) will likely be more effective than a much more dangerous weapon. And of course, if you need to shoot, it'll do its job.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Some interesting points, let me address a few:

1) Practicality of a shotgun. In the event of a home invasion, I think a shotgun is the most practical BECAUSE its over-kill... literally. In the abhorrent event that I am forced to fire my weapon as described in the scenarios above, I am going to shoot to kill. I would rather it over-kill than under-kill, as horrible as that sounds, its reality. As for the mess... well... at least I'd be alive to clean it up.

2) Getting a dog. Typh put it best. I'm getting the gun for the worst case scenario, not some dullard stumbling in drink or high. Dogs aren't bullet proof and if the intruder didn't care that my cars were in the driveway, I doubt he'll care about the alarm system. Although I think I will get an alarm system for the times we aren't home.

I do want to get a dog, though, but it has little to do with home defense.

3) The legality. A stated, pretty much if anyone breaks into your home and you kill them its your word against a dead man's word. You win. Now you can say that's horrible, but I'd rather trust the homeowner than the person breaking in to someone else's house. Bottom line: If you are a home invader, expect that you might be killed.

In fact, there have been cases where a home invader has gotten hurt breaking into someone's house, and then successfully SUED the homeowner. If that's not an incentive to kill invaders instead of injuring them, I don't know what is.

4) Whatever gun I own, I plan to learn how to use and maintain every inch of it, as I have every gun I've ever had. I'll also train my wife how to use it (in fact, I want to get her a small pistol for her purse if she'll carry it) and when the time comes, my kid. I'm convinced that accidental deaths regarding home firearms come from ignorance. Parents try to hide the firearm from the kid, and when the kid finds it, they treat it like a toy instead of a deadly weapon.

When I grew up my dad had M1 Carbine's, revolvers and hunting rifles hanging fom the walls in the basement and I never touched them. I learned very early how deadly they were, and I was given a bucket of toy guns to play with (boys just want to play with guns anyway, it doesn;t matter if they're real or plastic IMO)

And Dylflon, I'd appreciate it if you would stop insinuating that I am somehow bizarre or a killer if I decide to purchase a gun. Nothing I've described here would make you assume I am some nut, so please stop inferring it.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I really love animals, and owning a dog would just make me want a gun that much more in order to protect it. :)

I'm also not saying to get an alarm instead of a gun, but to have both. Better safe than sorry, I say. However unlikely it is someone will break in while your at home, I would rather have the upper hand if it did happen. There's no reason not too, other than the cost of a gun.

A blunt weapon would be alright if the person was unarmed, but what are you going to do if the person breaking in brought a gun? It seems likely if a person is going to invade your house then they aren't the type of person to have qualms about walking around armed and being ready to hurt you or your family.

I mean, bringing a knife to a gunfight just isn't a good idea.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

That's why you bring a sword.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qXlFNYoyQg

Wish i could embed

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Pretty sure I only insinuated it once, champ.


And what I meant to say the first time was phrased incredibly poorly. My concern is of thinking of shooting to kill over shooting to wound. (This thought was in response to you referring to liquefying an intruder)

But there is no point in pushing this any further because we clearly have very different ideas about home security and merit of gun ownership that we can't mediate through discussion.

Do what helps you sleep at night I suppose. I trust you'll take every precaution so that the gun never comes out of its respective hiding place unless the unthinkable happens.

The reality is that if you take precautions such as an alarm system and a dog who is also pretty much an alarm system, no intruder would bother breaking into your house with those two hurdles in front of him. Even criminals understand risk vs. reward. But I take this idea as a reason for my not wanting to own a handgun.

I know that in America (and parts of Canada) there is a very different ideology surrounding gun ownership, so I'm not going to argue with you or shit on your parade.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

This might be acceptable during the German portion of the Gay Pride Parade, so there is still hope!

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

No, twice in fact. The second time is when you said I could be "a normal person" and get a dog. The idea could have easily been made without the added insult, chief.

Dyflon, they teach law enforcement personnel, professional gunmen, to shoot to kill when threatened and in fact empty their clip just to be sure. You would expect more from an armed citizen when their home has been invaded? I think that's fantasy.

That and to practice using it and perform maintenance. But your trust is well laid.

In the end you are trusting someone with such low moral character that they would break into your home to run away if there is a dog or an alarm. I don't have that much trust.

I can see your point of view. You're playing the odds. With a family, I simply refuse to play the odds anymore.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Actually, just to touch on this point, I wouldn't expect nor want the same from a regular citizen that I would a law enforcement officer IE cop.

The reason I wouldn't want the same standards for cops and regular people is because then that gets across the idea that not only are cops normal people they just tell 'shoot to kill' to and push them out on their way, but that also insinuates (roughly) that normal citizens are allowed to empty an entire clip on an intruder in their home, and think 'well, cops can do it'.

Like you said, maybe it's different laws where you are - but you're not allowed to murder another human being (here) unless your life is in jeopardy. And just because someone comes into your house, doesn't mean your life is in jeopardy. In very few cases, yeah - the guy breaking in will totally have a gun or maybe have the intention of raping you and your family. But in a lot of the cases it's just junkies or 'young people' just looking for free shit.

The major problem I have with this idea of yours, is the fact you seem to want to use it. Making mention that if someone steps into your house without permission you're allowed to blast them to pieces, without even looking at the fact if they have a gun or not, or if your life is even in danger so long as you say 'I have a gun'.

Because if a junkie walks into your house and wants to steal a TV to sell for some crack, and you blast him to pieces just because he's there, that my friend is murder. Not self defense.

And this isn't so much me harping on you, moreso the situation of people wanting guns. The cycle will never end. Guns beget more guns.

And Dylan made a good point, criminals do understand risk vs. reward. Sure they have a highly inflated sense of ability, but if you have a loud alarm system - loud enough to wake neighbours - no criminal will stick around.

That's why we arm our cars with loud alarms, and not under-panel flamethrowers that activate automatically when someone touches the handle or jimmies the lock.

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I've never been in the scenario before, but how do you know if they're armed or not? :ohreilly:

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'm confused. Are you saying that you are expecting more weapon proficiency from a civilian than a professional law enforcer?

Typh, I think your still operating on assumptions sympathetic to your point of view. Could you give me feedback on the situations I detailed earlier? After much thought, I think these are realistic expectations to real life situations.

And when forced to shoot, I still think that shooting to wound is fantasy. This isn't the movies. I can't "wing" someone at will or shoot a weapon out of their hand. Realistically, I'm going to shoot for the largest part of their body, and that happens to be their torso. I also want to be sure they can't shoot back if they have a weapon.

There are reasons why police officers are taught to shoot the way they do, and that's because they enforce the law in the real world. When forced to defend your life, the only expectation you should have is to do so the most effective way possible.