[sdtPikachu]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
--Epicurus

Even if I could believe in a god, the atrocities that he lets humans commit would lead me to believe he was not worth worshipping.

"Dunandan, there is no way in explaining anything that counters what people think. If someone thinks a tree cant just magicly appear and you say "Well I think God can make a measly tree," you still havent answred, because In their opinion god dose not exist.

Plus it dosnt help to state your opinion trying to answer either becase thats IYO."

Precisely. It all comes down to what you believe. And what right do you have to assert that your opinion is more valid than someone elses? This is arrogant, ignorant and derogatory.

"Is there really something out there that can only be explained by God's existence? I believe there is not."

An answer to your question? That's what I believe too. AFAICS, there is nothing I have ever seen in my 21 years that shows beyond reasonable doubt that there is an all-powerful being who can control or create at whim. End of story.

"explain why you find it hard to believe that god exists"

Not just hard... all but impossible for me I'm afraid. To make me believe in god would mean I would have to forget almost everything I've learned over (at least) the past 8 years. As far as explanations go, I think I have done that more than enough.

"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available."

Actually there is. They were made by humans. Scaled experiments have shown that the pyramids can be built using huge labour forces and the advanced enginerring techniques they possessed. Experiments also show that the Easter Island heads are not only possibly made by humans, but actually show evidence of it. Pollen analysis shows that the inhabitants of Easter Island decimated their trees in order to make and manouvre these statues. There are even half-carved out hunks of rock stuck in the quarries.

"I just think that so much money, time and effort has been put into God, that there must be something out there that can do this."

? Explain please.

"I also have had some freaky Deja Vu's that I can tell you are Deja Vu's and not made up by my brain without knowing conciously"

Prove it. I don't doubt that you've had déja vu's (I have too) but you have no way of knowing if they are your head playing tricks on you or not. Memory is not the most reliable of records. Seems quite easy to me to see how your brain can just make you think you've seen/done/felt something before.

"I'm asking you for a logical reason for NOT thinking he exists."

He's already given it about three times. How many times will he have to say it? HE DOES NOT SEE ANY LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD and therefore doesn't see why he should.

"Also, even if you don't feel he exists, why not read deeper into it?"

So maybe Xantar hasn't. So what? He's explained it satisfactorily to himself. To turn the tables again, I wonder if you have studied the thinking behind atheism and agnosticism in depth? To suggest Xantar study your beliefs whilst you show such a flagrant disrespect of his (although you may not see it, as it is from your point of view only) is rude.

"It also seems that you have no path anyway, and you are not even trying to search for one."

Presumably, like me, because he doesn't feel that he has to.

"Right now, NOTHING pertaining creation can be explained, period."

We can prove that the earth is a fair bit older than 6000 years, and that the universe is expanding and that their are background traces of an explosion in the form of high energy microwave radiation at the edge of the universe. Just because not every aspect of how the universe formed can be scientifically explained doean't mean that there is no scientific explanation.

"...is what make the Bible the easiest thing to believe."

You may say that a drunken man is more happy than a sober one. But it doesn't make the drunken man any better. I agree, the bible is by far the easiest thing to believe. I just don't believe it.

"Examine the very thing you are, a Human, there isn't an explination that makes sense, is there?"

Yes

"...but for you what makes the most sense... and why does that make more scientific sense to you?"

Science, plain and simple. It's what I can see - and that makes more sense to me than someone telling me that the world is governed by an existential deity with total control over us. Why does science make more scientific sense to me? Isn't this a bit if a silly question?

"When a scientist create a new creature, not an evolved form of somthing, but an all around new creature, It will still be hard for me to believe that liquids came together on eath and created somthing as advanced as us."

How are we meant to "create" a new creature? By recombining DNA that already exists. This is what happened with life overall. We just don't know enough about DNA in order to do this yet.

"What makes you not believe in god."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGH!
The way that (to me) there is not one iota of evidence for the existence of a god, whereas science produces a plethora of explanations for virtually every known natural process as well as hundreds of unnatural ones.

"It isn't that hard to understand..."

Thank you, PureEvil.

"I don't believe in god. the reasons are a bit personal so I won't go into that. the reason I am posting this is because I wanted to say how controlling and unaccepting catholic/Christian/Lutheran/whatever's are. whenever one of them finds someone who doesn't share their beliefs, they either dislike them, or try to "convert them". I USED to be catholic, with a very religious grandmother, so any defense toward your religion you could passably come up with, I have already heard. I do not try to "convert" religious people to atheism, and I would hope to receive the same respect. anyway, the only religion I could see myself taking up is budism, as it's a religion of love and acceptance, regardless of anyone's belief, and I respect that."

Wow. Respect, man! I too am annoyed with what I see as controlling aspects of religion. I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god (just as I don't presuppose that you shouldn't believe in a god, I don't think people should tell me what to think either), and the way that so many religions look down on (and in many instances kill) those who do not share their opinions.
I too repect buddhism for being probably the only religion I have studied which preaches tolerance and acceptance above all.

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
--Dalai Lama

"OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart"

Now now Fez, calm down. Xantar is just expressing an opinion as well as he can so he can best explain his beliefs to others.

"A logical reason for not believing in God? I don't think there is any such reason any more there is a logical reason for believing in God."

Precisely.

"Here's a surprise for you: atheism has a little bit of faith too."

Yup, it certainly does. Like he says, we just place it in different things to you.

"My belief has never failed me, so why should I stop believeing?"

My belief has never failed me either.

"So once again, what personal experiences and/or things you know make you believe that God doesn't exist?"

For the last freaking time... A TOTAL LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE PERTAINING TO HIS EXISTENCE.

"I can experiment as much as I want... through prayer... (of course you won't accept this answer)"

So you have just admitted that you are closed minded and are only prepared to see what your prayer leads you to see. Am I correct, or do I misinterpret?

"They just knew somthing, but they didn't want to find an explination for it."

Wrong. They just accepted that things fall and forgot about it. They didn't care how it worked.

"Religion is a form of attempting to find an explination for everything."

And, in my opinion, failing dismally as far as logical thought goes.

"Do you know what Hell is?"

I imagine Xantar does know what hell is, in your sense of it anyway. But as far as I'm concerned I'm not going there, and again I think it arrogant and rude of you to tell him that he is. I don't believe it exists, so why should it worry me?

"What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time
What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell"

So the minute he reads it he'll be so overwhelend he'll eventaully see the "real truth"?

I've read it, I've tried it and I don't believe it, period.


As long as every question is answered by the word "God," scientific inquiry is simply impossible.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)