Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us

[Bond]

I am currently enrolled in a seminar class this semester that meets every Wednesday night for two and a half hours. The class is called "Diversity Dialogues." As juniors, we take the class during our spring semester, and teach (more so facilitate) the class to freshman during the fall semester of our senior year. It's a very small class (thirteen students, probably in part because it is limited to honors students), which is a rarity for a university as large as ours. The discussions are often very lively, and the two professors that run the course are not afraid to debate along with us. The class has a decidedly left-of-center tilt, but I have enjoyed this as it has challenged the views I brought into the class, and certainly widened my perspective on the issues of diversity and privilege that impact our country.

A major issue that I raised during our last discussion that we were not able to resolve was the title of this thread: how do we reconcile the American Dream with the least among us? Allow me to explain what I mean.

The American Dream is at the core of our shared experience as Americans. Whether you view it as an unattainable myth or some thing that can be achieved seems inconsequential to me, as it runs so deep through our culture - it is our culture. The American Dream was first formally expressed (minus the Declaration of Independence, which may be debatable) by James Truslow Adams in 1931, in which he said that any citizen can achieve a "better, richer, and happier life." It seems to me as though, within this definition of the American Dream, comes the baggage that some citizens will succeed, while others will fail. In fact, our "capitalist" economy is built on a series of winners and losers that writes a history in which only the winners are remembered. While I do think this has led to great prosperity, and probably more successes than failures, it is not without its costs, which leads me to the least among us.

It seems as though our ability to achieve the American Dream is predetermined by our rank of privilege within our society. Let me give you a personal example. I am currently studying for the LSAT, with aspirations to attend law school after my undergraduate studies are completed, and hopefully lead a successful legal career when all is said and done. Within this dream is the distinct possibility that I will fail. Perhaps I flunk the LSAT, my grades begin to decline, and I become a drunkard. All of this is within the realm of possibility. What happens to me? Well, I go back to live with my parents, of course.

Doing so would place little-to-no financial burden upon them, and I am confident that they would welcome me back with open arms. It is this confidence and privilege that gives me the ability to take the risk to pursue my dreams that I am taking. But, this is only because I am above the threshold that dictates whether or not I can take these sorts of risks.

I believe this threshold boils down to the question: if someone fails at his or her dream, is there a place they can unconditionally turn (whether it be family or close friends) that will take them back, and also not incur excessive financial hardship due to their arrival?

The least among us, largely due to predetermined financial situations that most have little to no control over, do not have this luxury or privilege. They cannot take these risks as readily as we can. They do not have the safety net of the aforementioned threshold.

So, in sum, my question is this: how can we reconcile the American Dream with the least among us? Is it even possible? Should we even care to?

[KillerGremlin]

Reconcile? Har har har...

Originally Posted by Bond

It seems as though our ability to achieve the American Dream is predetermined by our rank of privilege within our society.

I don't think it seems is leading strong enough. Considering America was built on the exploits of Native Americans and settled by wealthy, privileged upper-class Europeans, I'd say our country wrote the textbook on exploits and privilege. Look at our current rising prison population or the global labor force or distribution of wealth for examples of privilege.

I have several thoughts but my radical thought is that the American dream is a myth on two parts: the first being that this country has been living well beyond its means and at the exploits of the rest of the world (but then, is this just healthy competition and are we forever bound to live in a dog eat dog world?), and two being that many people within this country are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to privilege.

/radical opinion

[Professor S]

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

Also, we have to define what the American Dream really is. After all, I'm sure many people who say they'll never "make it" likely have an iPhone in their pocket and a car. For previous generations a modest house and a car in every garage was the dream. Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV.

There are just too many examples of people making the American Dream, whatever that may be, come true for it to be myth. Our ducation levels have never been higher (can be accredited to the GI Bill and government grants/loans) and wealth, even with the recession, has skyrocketed over time for every income level. Now is the American Dream more difficult for the poor (I refuse to call them the "least of us", that is insulting)? Undoubtedly, but no one said that everyone is the same, only that we have the equal opportunity under the law, not under the fairness. We would all love for everyone in the world to have the same starting point in life, but that will never happen whether by chance (status/wealth at birth) or by act of God (intelligence and health level).

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

Me? I tend to agree with Michael Corleone from The Godfather... "Contempt for wealth is a trick played by the rich on the poor to ensure they never have it." The more the poor are convinced they'll never have anything, the less people the rich have to worry about competing with them. Even look at our tax structure. As we have gone forward to make the ideal of "fairness" a law and created taxes that punish and redistribute rather than encourage new wealth, it has made the American Dream harder and harder to attain. Now if you HAVE money and can hire tax, financial and legal counsel you can avoid paying most of the punitive taxes... but hey, thats for THEM not for YOU. It takes money to keep money in our current government.

If everyone would stop pining over everyone else, and start pining over their own condition, I think the world would be in a much better state and we wouldn't have a generation growing up thinking they have no hope unless the government spoon-feeds it to them atop an infant's high chair.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

I would agree with you here in that the percentage of the "wealthy" that are generational is much lower than the self made, but I suppose this might depend as to how precisely we define the term wealthy. I would say, however, that in some ways we have developed our own form of an aristocracy, but to a lesser degree than European nations. We have our Rockefellers and our Vanderbilts, although they are few. I view them more so as a natural by-product of wealth creation than anything else.

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

My first response would be to not let the myth of the perfect blind anyone from seeing the good.

If the TRUE determiner of one's class are their parents 1) Black people would still be slaves (thats why equality under the law is so important) and 2) I would be a a member of the working poor right now. In my mind the real reason is that we've had a government has been telling people since the 1930's that they can't do it, and has taken steps to ensure that they can't in a misguided attempt to help.

I could cite examples from today's predominantly black inner city ghettos and disproportionate occurrences of single parent households being a result of 1920's - 1940's government policies rather than individual efforts all the way to the counter-productive tax system I described earlier to draconian eminent domain laws. If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference. In such an environment discouragement would be the norm, not the exception.

Still, even with all of this interference and borderline abuse, America is still the first and best example of people being able to come from nothing and make a successful life on their own terms, whatever that may be. Also, immigrants still flock to out shores. Hell, we're building a damn wall to keep them out because they are fleeing a REAL aristocracy in Mexico, where if you were born with native blood you are essentially &%$@ed at birth.

To me its all about perspective.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

Also, we have to define what the American Dream really is. After all, I'm sure many people who say they'll never "make it" likely have an iPhone in their pocket and a car. For previous generations a modest house and a car in every garage was the dream. Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV.

There are just too many examples of people making the American Dream, whatever that may be, come true for it to be myth. Our ducation levels have never been higher (can be accredited to the GI Bill and government grants/loans) and wealth, even with the recession, has skyrocketed over time for every income level. Now is the American Dream more difficult for the poor (I refuse to call them the "least of us", that is insulting)? Undoubtedly, but no one said that everyone is the same, only that we have the equal opportunity under the law, not under the fairness. We would all love for everyone in the world to have the same starting point in life, but that will never happen whether by chance (status/wealth at birth) or by act of God (intelligence and health level).

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

What is this American dream? Is it the broadening class gap between the rich and the poor? The rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer. Is the American dream living in country that lives beyond its means? Our rampant consumerism, and we have been a consumerist nation for the past several decades, has resulted in us exploiting the labor of poor people (oh noes, slave labor in sweatshops, there's one example of privelage or lack thereof) as well as the environment. Or how about the waste we have accumulated (garbage) and the damage we have done to the environment to have all our stuff. Is the American dream to own a bunch of objects: iPods, cars, houses, cellphones, etc. Is it to be a consumerist driven society that wants and wants and wants? We are an A-D-D society that no longer values art or reading or philosophy or religion, and in my opinion education to an extent. How normal is it for youth to read books and bask in the wonders of education? Now it's a bunch of standardized testing to get your kid into college so he can get a job so he can make money so he can BUY SHIT HE DOES NOT NEED. Is that the American dream? Is the American dream really to become the CEO of a company and get paid a ridiculous salary that NO ONE is worth/deserves, or is it just to have basic things like security in your neighborhood, food on the table, a right to your own decision regarding your job, and a freedom to express yourself.

If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism. That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola.

Am I cynical?

I really did not want to get involved in this thread...but TheSlyMoogle has done a lot of the work for me so why not.

Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity)

Originally Posted by Professor S

Overall, reading your story I think the real monkey wrench was your relationship with your parents (and bureaucracy that I talked about as an inhibitor to the AD earlier, and how it relates to esclalating education costs, but that is another topic all together), which is very unfortunate and I hope they will come to their senses so your family can be healthy and happy. But that said, I'm not sure your circumstances could be described as normal and applied to the American Dream as a whole, even though it certainly affects you.

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.


By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others.

So while I'm all for individualism (I really am, I'm going into Psychology because I like helping people, I like that individual connection, and sociology is too theoretical and idealistic for me) and rooting on the people who do make an effort to get an education and succeed, I'm also empathetic to those who fall victim to depression, suicide, gang violence, drugs, prison, etc.

Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.

As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

Haha I wasn't going to get into this as was done with the thread, but you pretty much said everything I would have. It is the norm, most people who I've met in my life since have been like "Oh yeah I have a friend whose parents did the same thing"

It's quite common for most people, especially in this part of the US. Hell, until 1973 Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.

Basically due to our overly religious society mostly, and because it's just the next thing to hate. "Oh not cool to hate people of other races anymore? Fine... I'll hate someone else. Oh gay people, that seems hateable. Let's do that."

That's an entirely different discussion.

I will say that I am fortunate enough to have not run into many people in my lifetime that have viewed me in a negative way because of my sexual preference. At least, not at face, and really in the end societal tolerance through societal pressure is fine with me Hahaha.


Also I wish everyone could have an iPod. Also that it was cool for everyone to just jam out all the time. Think the world would be a better place if there was more music.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

What is this American dream? Is it the broadening class gap between the rich and the poor? The rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer.

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

Is the American dream living in country that lives beyond its means?

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Our rampant consumerism, and we have been a consumerist nation for the past several decades, has resulted in us exploiting the labor of poor people (oh noes, slave labor in sweatshops, there's one example of privelage or lack thereof) as well as the environment.

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

If anything, I'd say India is better at pursuing the American Dream than we are right now and China's continued assimilation of free market philosophies are rapidly improving their civil rights status, but again, everything is relative.

Or how about the waste we have accumulated (garbage) and the damage we have done to the environment to have all our stuff. Is the American dream to own a bunch of objects: iPods, cars, houses, cellphones, etc. Is it to be a consumerist driven society that wants and wants and wants?

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

We are an A-D-D society that no longer values art or reading or philosophy or religion, and in my opinion education to an extent. How normal is it for youth to read books and bask in the wonders of education?

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Now it's a bunch of standardized testing to get your kid into college so he can get a job so he can make money so he can BUY SHIT HE DOES NOT NEED.

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Is that the American dream? Is the American dream really to become the CEO of a company and get paid a ridiculous salary that NO ONE is worth/deserves, or is it just to have basic things like security in your neighborhood, food on the table, a right to your own decision regarding your job, and a freedom to express yourself.

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism.

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola.

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others.

By your standard I suppose thats true. I apply my own standard to my motivations.

Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Pissing into the wind only gets you wet.

[KillerGremlin]

I like you Prof...because at least you're fair. And I find that by putting my thoughts out here, I learn stuff (like your response and Seth's post). I'm pretty reactionary which is another reason why I wouldn't survive in law...but I digress.

Originally Posted by Professor S

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

True. My post was pretty reactionary...I guess it just seems that way (the broadening gap) given all the media focus on the CEOs and the bankers.

Originally Posted by Professor S

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Agreed...especially on a person level. People make bad choices. I think there is a lot of deception and things that influence people to make bad choices, and it questions the motives of credit card companies and banks, but it is what it is and if people were wiser (like my parents, and it sounds like you and your family as well) then it'd be better in general. On the other hand, do you think our government and our economy is structured in a way that is beyond our means? Is there a point where this country will financially hit a roadblock and not be able to resolve the issue? I'm asking your opinion, not argumentatively because I do not know.

Originally Posted by Professor S

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

My understanding is the brain drain actually has caused India to take a financial hit as a country? Again, I'm not really trying to provoke an argument, I've just heard conflicting reports. Also, there exists sweatshops outside of China and India where standards are a lot different. We could probably do a whole thread on labor across the world, and globalization and all that. I think you'd find I agree with you about a lot of the issues because I personally believe that as we progress as a global society, much of what determines a country's value will be education.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

And I agree with this! I say AMEN! I think the problem is our society has defined what people need/want. Especially current generations. I know when I was in high school there was little leeway for the artists or musicians or the people who wanted to pursue something outside of college like plumbing or electricity. It was a push from high school to college to the job that you supposedly need and want at the end of the tunnel. For many people, I think, society conditions them to believe they have this set path. And it gets worse and worse because our education now focuses on standardized testing and bullshit tests like the ACT or the GRE to determine intelligence (these tests are as flawed as the IQ tests). I think our country is becoming a bit oppressed, I think it is very covert. Again...I could go on this for hours, we could dedicate a thread to this.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Agreed. Again, all this standardized testing and merit of intelligence doesn't help either, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Professor S

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Touche, I guess?

Originally Posted by Professor S

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

My comment about the CEO thing was kind of a sarcastic response to your statement which was:
"Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV."

I don't think people really want to become overpaid CEOs or to get on TV. I think they just want the basic stuff like what you want: a family, retirement, a beer. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of everyone, but neither can you.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

I'll agree to disagree and add a twist. I think we are a consumerist driven society but I think we are a species that is driven by want anyway. I think that drive could be good in that it gives us something to live for. And I'll leave it at that because again...we could make a whole new thread.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

My statement was both brash and a disclaimer to myself. Basically, my disclaimer is that I want stuff and I enjoy wanting it. I don't consider myself better or unique than anyone else in the world, and my observations about our consumerist driven society are true to myself. Money doesn't make me happy...writing, music, exercising, my family, my girlfriend, my pursuits of education on my own behalf...these things make me happy. I also enjoy horology, a recent hobby, which requires money. I realize watches are a somewhat superficial hobby, but it could be argued that video gaming or comics or anything is. At the same time, I do think that a lot of the things I want are things I don't need, and that want does help motivate myself to work. I guess it is just conditioning.

Originally Posted by Professor S

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

I like the Constitution.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

I guess the only thing I would say to this is that sometimes your culture and government influences you in a way that does impact what you can or cannot do. Your mobility in society is greatly influenced by your race, class, sexuality, etc. Some people have to overcome additional burdens (like a black queer vs. white straight person) and that is how privilege factors into the pursuit of the American dream. That's my opinion. And as far as "you own your future," I would disagree. You don't chose your skin color or your sexuality, and so part of your future is dictated by your personal choices as well as the world you live in. 100 years ago, if you were born with a mental disorder you were thrown into a prison for life and tortured. Pre-Stonewall, if you were gay and you went to a club you got throw in jail. Today, if you you use crack cocaine you face more time in prison than someone who uses regular cocaine (and guess which communities have the highest rates of use of crack cocaine).

Ultimately, you and I are going to disagree forever unless my opinion changes (and I'm open to change....lol...I've changed on quite a few issues that I think even you and I have discussed during my tenure on these boards). I respect the people who do rise above their struggles, they are the examples that we as a society should live by.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

And this is my #1 problem with sociology. It is a bit self-serving and self-loathing. At the same time, I hope that by recognizing the broader social issues that keep certain groups repressed we can move forward as a society. You said I'm very negative, but I think that's a fairly optimistic way to look at sociology and things like civil rights. Also, when you have groups in the age bracket of 12-18 (inner city kids who go to Chicago Public Schools) that see gang violence frequently, or Latino children attending schools in California who see murders (and it is common enough of occurrence that it happens to about 1 in 3 youth), it becomes less of a self-defeating exercise and more of a "what the heck is wrong with society?" conversation.

Originally Posted by Professor S

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Again, I think there is some truth in this and that the truth in it is inspiring. But overall I'm going to agree to disagree. And pleasantly so if I may add.

If this was a real pub I'd say let's put our differences aside and have a beer. This whole Internet thing is really throwing off the fun of a good argument, eh?

[Bond]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity)

Madison is not a cornfield you silly head. While Madison is ~83% white, that statistic does not take into account our significant international population. To be fair, I wouldn't defend the city or its diversity in a normal conversation, but someone has to stand up to those mean people from Illinois.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Bond

Madison is not a cornfield you silly head. While Madison is ~83% white, that statistic does not take into account our significant international population. To be fair, I wouldn't defend the city or its diversity in a normal conversation, but someone has to stand up to those mean people from Illinois.

I was semi-giving you a hard time.

Most universities aren't all that diverse to begin with (the main bias being...it's full of smart college students).

[Teuthida]

EDIT: Prof nailed it with "equal opportunity under the law."

I always considered the American Dream to be that an individual can achieve their goals through hard work no matter their background. If you want something bad enough, and study/practice/do whatever it takes, you can make it. Now, how long this take is another matter. For a poor older immigrant it might be very hard, but their offspring would have just as much chance as anyone else. Just need the drive.

Like your example Bond, I'm sure there are plenty of folks in your situation without the cushy fallback. They'll make sure their grades don't decline or become a drunkard as you say. They can't afford to not succeed. Chances are they have a job paying their way through college and law school.

[TheSlyMoogle]

I'm not getting into this too much, as Bond and I have already talked about it to an extent, but the American Dream is bullshit. Plain and simple.

If you honestly believe the majority of rich people are rich because they were dedicated and hard working, that's bullshit too. Most of the rich people you know and hear about go from rags to riches sure, but the majority of them don't. Those who get rich stay that way, as well as their descendants.

And while we're here look up class mobility in the united states. Which by the way has been on a steady decline since 1970, and only managed to stabilize, yet not increase in the last decade.

Rising cost of tuition, and absolute dependency on a college degree have really fucked things up when it comes to the american dream.

Generation after Generation we vote those into power over our laws and government who are the people of the upper class, and they make the decisions for us. No one else sees a problem in that? Probably not.

This shit wont change until people wake the fuck up and realize what's actually important at the end of the day.

Unfortunately the nation isn't moving towards anything that resembles the Star Trek universe and it probably never will, so hey whatever. I fully look for someone to blow the USA up in the next 50-100 years anyway.

I know Prof is going to have something to say about this, and I'm going to go ahead an throw out that we clearly had vastly different sociology professors.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

I know Prof is going to have something to say about this, and I'm going to go ahead an throw out that we clearly had vastly different sociology professors.

Actually my Sociological Foundations of Education teacher was a open communist. He even included communism as part of his curriculum. And yes, he HATED me because I dared to challenge him. My only A- of my entire grad school experience and I only did that well because I just started to repeat his lectures back to him in my papers. Head of the department and a complete pompous ignoramous.

As for you argument, I empathize with much of it, especially the reality that the world is unfair has gotten exceedingly less fair as we've meddled with social experimentation. I am a firm believer that most of our tax code does more to maintain the status quo than help overturn it.

These failures do not erase the successes, though, and does not remove the fact that America is possibly the greatest example of a government philosophy allowing the poor/lower classes to gain wealth and success and climb up the rungs of society. Hell, my father was one of 9 children and they grew up with a communal sink and an outhouse. He and my mom currently lives in a Victorian he restored over 30 years that is now worth over $1 million. No one gave it to him. He made it happen, and there were plenty of tough times along the way. I call 1991 recession the Tuna Casserole Year...

It wasn't that long ago that the poor in the civilized world could never achieve simply because of their birth right or because they languished under a totalitarian regime. Hell, the aristocracy is still a real social structure in Britain. I could feel it in the mere two weeks I was in Scotland and Ireland (moreso Scotland). America is still one of the few places on earth where someone can achieve fame and fortune through their own merit and hard work. Just ask Oprah. But as with anything, there are no guarantees. If anyone wants guarantees they can get a welfare check at the first of every month.

But if you want to believe the American Dream is a myth, please go right ahead. I will gladly help myself to your piece of the pie.