BaB Presents: Where'd Wii go Wrong

[Angrist]

The Strangler, why do you keep involving art? Is it just so when it's needed, you can say "Nuh-uh, your argument doesn't count, because I'm talking about games as an artform!", or are you honestly more interested in games as an artform than games in general?

Bob Ross his work might not be very good art, but they are paintings.
You can't dismiss an apple because it's not a banana. What's the use in this discussion to criticize games because they don't have a high art-value?

But ok, to take that route: Bob Ross took a different approach to art and it was very popular. I'm sure he introduced thousands of people to the world of art. Because of him, some people might even have become good artists.
Did Bob Ross damage the art industry? Or did he enrich it?

I think the casual and hardcore games will form a new genre that combines the best elements of both. I'd even daresay that Nintendo Wii is already an important step towards virtual reality.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Angrist

The Strangler, why do you keep involving art? Is it just so when it's needed, you can say "Nuh-uh, your argument doesn't count, because I'm talking about games as an artform!", or are you honestly more interested in games as an artform than games in general?

My taste in games tends to be those of a more detailed nature, in both visuals and storytelling (I think visuals are inherent to storytelling in games, and sound being the most important of all). A lot of this is simply my opinion, but I was asked for my opinion and I will defend it when challenged. Its not personal, just answering the question.

What do I think? Thats always a dangerous question to ask me.

Bob Ross his work might not be very good art, but they are paintings.

Well there lies a whole other conversation...

You can't dismiss an apple because it's not a banana. What's the use in this discussion to criticize games because they don't have a high art-value?

Yes I can. Its my opinion of where I think Nintendo and the Wii went wrong, and I think they abandoned the future of gaming as a artform. My problem with the Wii isn't that its not a Banana, but that it is taking all the attention and funding away from the Bananas. Wow, what a weird analogy, and yet it works.

But ok, to take that route: Bob Ross took a different approach to art and it was very popular. I'm sure he introduced thousands of people to the world of art. Because of him, some people might even have become good artists.

Back to the age old question of what is art. Bob painted virtually by numbers, and while he inspired many painters, I doubt he created many artists.

Did Bob Ross damage the art industry? Or did he enrich it?

Bob Ross helped the industry, but in the end I think Bob Ross is irrelevant in the art world, so outside the theater of advancement and ideas that he is a novelty... a whimsical sidenote. Popularity defying the norm of either pop culture or elitist art.

I think the casual and hardcore games will form a new genre that combines the best elements of both. I'd even daresay that Nintendo Wii is already an important step towards virtual reality.

Perhaps it is, but that remains to be seen. I can see how its success would lead the insustry towards more kinetic gameplay, which isn;t necessarily a bad thing. I just don't like the direction that the Wii has taken gaming in THIS generation.

[Bube]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Perhaps it is, but that remains to be seen. I can see how its success would lead the insustry towards more kinetic gameplay, which isn;t necessarily a bad thing. I just don't like the direction that the Wii has taken gaming in THIS generation.

So your main problem with the Wii is the graphics (help with grammar here )? If the Wii was as powerful as a 360, it would've been more immersing for you, and you'd be closer to the art form you wanted?

Or is the problem the games? Nintendo have always been about Mario, Zelda, Metroid - you'd never get a Mass Effect from them. And that brings us back to the original question - why doesn't the Wii get games like Mass Effect? The controller? The graphics? The target audience?

On another note, you say that Nintendo moved the industry back. I don't think they moved it back, because the industry, for reasons we can discuss, haven't really agreed with Nintendo, and they don't have much support. Nintendo have created a different platform, where currently only themselves and a few others are playing on. You still have the other 2 consoles for your taste.

Which is why I wanted a 360. I love playing the kiddy/fun games, but I too, sometimes want some epic storytelling and action (I looooved BioShock).

Nintendo didn't do anything wrong industry-wise to affect your dreams. The industry is still going the way of interactive-movie. It's just that Nintendo isn't (or at least didn't, this generation).

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Bube

On another note, you say that Nintendo moved the industry back. I don't think they moved it back, because the industry, for reasons we can discuss, haven't really agreed with Nintendo, and they don't have much support. Nintendo have created a different platform, where currently only themselves and a few others are playing on. You still have the other 2 consoles for your taste.

I'd argue that Nintendo, with the release of the Wii, has moved the industry horizontally as opposed to its previous vertical climb. And I think because now Nintendo is moving on this horizontal path it has the potential to begin climbing up once again or to climb down. Climbing down, of course, being very dangerous in my view.

[thatmariolover]

Originally Posted by Bond

I'd argue that Nintendo, with the release of the Wii, has moved the industry horizontally as opposed to its previous vertical climb. And I think because now Nintendo is moving on this horizontal path it has the potential to begin climbing up once again or to climb down. Climbing down, of course, being very dangerous in my view.

I'd argue that the Wiimote by itself was a bigger step for gaming than an evolution of graphical prowess ever will be. How you play a game is equally important to what you're playing. The issue is how they're marketing what to do with that technology. Most of the time it's used as more of a gimmick instead of using it intelligently like Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, and The Godfather. Even Zelda could have used it better in a few instances.

In the end, current developers (and many consumers such as yourself) view them as separate issues. I think that the bottom line should be how to make games more immersive and entertaining. I think the payoff is just more obvious with glitzy graphics.

[Angrist]

Nintendo will have made such a crapload of money by then, that they're going to compete graphically again. And of course they have a hugely improved motion controller. The best of two worlds.

Of course Sony and Microsoft will offer us the same thing, so it will be a very interesting generation.

[Jason1]

Just like in the past........Nintendo Invents the D-Pad, its copied. Nintendo invents the shoulder button, its copied. Nintendo invents the analog thumb stick, its copied. Nintendo invents the rumble pack, its copied. Nintendo invents the (working) wireless controller, its copied.

And now the Wii. I guarantee you it will be copied by sony and microsoft in the future. I believe it is the future of gaming wether some people like it or not. Nintendo is the only company with the balls to innovate, its occasionally hurt them but at least they are trying to make strides.

Saying that Nintendo is moving the industry backwards is laughable. Nintendo has done nothing but move the industry forward since the early 1980s, and thats exactly what they continue to do.

[Angrist]

People just care too much about graphics.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Angrist

People just care too much about graphics.

Well, like most things, it depends.

My favorite wrestling game of all time is Wrestlemania 2000 (or better yet, my import of Virtual pro Wrestling 2) for the N64. I still play that game to this day, and I love it for one reason: Gameplay. To this day I believe it is the single greatest fighting engine ever created. I picked it up after about 5 years of not playing it once, I intuitively knew how to play the game.

But keep in mind, the entire point of that game is gameplay. There is no real story, beyond fighting enough matches to earn money and unlock moves, hidden characters and skins. So poor graphics don't take anything away from that game because there is nothing for those graphics to augment.

Now try tanslating that to a game such as Devil May Cry, SOTC, Oni, Doom 3, The Condemned or Resident Evil... Those games depend on graphics to create a mood and help tell the story. If you have pathetic graphics in those types of games, it would kill what those games are trying to accomplish.

[Angrist]

Setting a mood is done by art, not by polygons. I thought you'd know.

[KillerGremlin]

I'm pretty much done with this thread, I've had enough with the roundabouts. And I like the Wii. We need the next thread so everyone can rip apart the PS3 and the Xbox 360, just a quick final thought in response to BreakABone and Angrist:

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I've already pointed out that I feel the Wii has already had an impact on the FPS genre. If it goes further than the Wii isn't up to me. But in terms of controls/interactivity the bar has been raised.

I still disagree with you, but you're arguing with a PC gamer that has been shooting stuff since Doom. I don't think consoles have yet to forward the genre, and that includes the Wii, regardless of the Wiimote's increased interactivity.

Originally Posted by BreakABone

What the hell are the Ps3 and 360?

It will be very interesting to see what the future holds for Sony and Microsoft and motion control.

Originally Posted by Angrist

Setting a mood is done by art, not by polygons. I thought you'd know.

That's not entirely true. Processing power/graphical power plays a pretty big role. Grand Theft Auto laid down the processor smack down. And games like Ocarina of Time have a great combination of AMAZING art style and console horsepower. I always mention Jet Set Radio, one of my favorite games, because I think it had a great combination of art style but needed some decent horsepower to run. I think we've murdered this discussion at GT already. But I agree with you for the most part, one of my still favorite games is No One Lives Forever, which came out in 2000 and runs on a modified Unreal engine (I think). It still has some of the best level design I have ever seen in an FPS.



Now...where is our thread where we get to criticize Sony and Microsoft?

[BreakABone]

Hate to bump this thread, but didn't feel like starting a new one. I think this is an interesting way to look at shovelware on the Wii.

Let’s put it this way, I’ve certainly heard the criticism that there’s too much crap on the Wii and that all these awful titles are dragging the system down but there’s another way to look at that which is to say that Nintendo basically believes in a free market. I don’t think I’m giving away any state secrets when I say that Nintendo, by having a huge selection of software on their system, puts the consumers in control. Having a lot of software on the system means yes, a higher percentage of it is going to be bad, but it also means that you’re going to get some gems and the consumer will be able to make up their own mind. So every time I hear that there’s too much crap on the Wii my reflexive response is, ‘wait a second, have you walked down a grocery isle recently?’ Consumers get to make choices - do you really want someone else to do your thinking for you?

http://next-gen.biz/index.php?option...1&limitstart=2

[Aladuf]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Hate to bump this thread, but didn't feel like starting a new one. I think this is an interesting way to look at shovelware on the Wii.

http://next-gen.biz/index.php?option...1&limitstart=2

What a shitty way to attempt at justifying all of the Wii's shovelware! Come on.

[Dyne]

Well, that's probably the best spin you could do. At least you can't complain the Wii doesn't HAVE any third party stuff. Whether it's good is another question.

[Angrist]

Most developers just don't have any idea what to do on the Wii.