Wikileaks footage of US army gunship killing innocent people

[Fox 6]

Pretty stirring, and graphic footage.

[magus113]

I watched the short version of the video, no less horrible to watch.
Seriously that's fucked up.

[Dylflon]

This is infuriating.

Fuck the military.

[Typhoid]

This is what happens when you train 20-something's to hate a faceless skin colour, get them full of testosterone and adrenaline, take away hobbies or activities, then give them guns.

[Professor S]

I agree that this was a horrible accident, but by all accounts it was still an accident. There was a lot of fighting in that area before the attack shown in the video and there were armed men that were left out of much of the video.

I don't defend the action, but I think this situation needs a little perspective.

[Xantar]

Sorry, Satan. I'm going to freeze your home and agree with Professor S.

This was a hot zone. The military had recently been fighting some actual insurgents in the area. Those very same helicopter pilots might have been fighting people who were really trying to kill them a few hours ago.

Moreover, from what I've read, the pilots followed the rules of engagement correctly. They assessed the threat, called it in, got permission to open fire and then did so. Some of their remarks seem callous, but the fact of the matter is that being a professional killer tends to dehumanize the people you're trying to kill. It's human nature.

I've also read that someone in the van actually did have an RPG. We don't know what it was for, but it was there.

I would say that there was no need to fire on a van that was just trying to rescue people. But the bigger point to be made by this video is that despite all good intentions, this is the stuff that happens when you go to war. People are going to die. Sometimes it's going to be the wrong people. Sometimes it's going to be people who don't deserve it. You can't avoid that no matter how much you try. That's why war is the last resort.

[thatmariolover]

Regardless, the video reveals two specific acts that constitute war crimes under the Geneva Conventions: firing on a wounded or disabled combatant and firing on a provider of aid. The Army claims the van didn't bear a red cross (international sign of aid required to be on ambulances) and that similar vans had been giving aid to the insurgents. So killing the wounded combatant was apparently just collateral damage and not a war crime. If I was an insurgent, I'd start painting red crosses on all my vans - what a terrible way of distinguishing genuine targets.

The US government should have investigated it themselves and made a press release. I'm not saying it wasn't an accident. We just shouldn't be learning about it from a whistleblower.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by thatmariolover

Regardless, the video reveals two specific acts that constitute war crimes under the Geneva Conventions: firing on a wounded or disabled combatant and firing on a provider of aid. The Army claims the van didn't bear a red cross (international sign of aid required to be on ambulances) and that similar vans had been giving aid to the insurgents. So killing the wounded combatant was apparently just collateral damage and not a war crime. If I was an insurgent, I'd start painting red crosses on all my vans - what a terrible way of distinguishing genuine targets.

The US government should have investigated it themselves and made a press release. I'm not saying it wasn't an accident. We just shouldn't be learning about it from a whistleblower.

This is why the Geneva Conventions specifically cover uniformed combatants. Once the adversary hides behind civilian clothing and civilians themselves, they drastically increase the chances that innocents will die. Uniforms are meant to help protect non-combatants, not just to be strictly utilitarian.

[Vampyr]

I think the worst part of the video is when the shooter is urging the guy crawling to pick up a weapon so he can shoot him.

No matter what you say, that part isn't an accident.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I think the worst part of the video is when the shooter is urging the guy crawling to pick up a weapon so he can shoot him.

No matter what you say, that part isn't an accident.

Neither is it an accident when guns like those are aimed, fired and used to kill American servicemen who are patrolling roads or guarding food and medicine deliveries. If you've seen your friends blown to pieces by IEDs I think you might find dark joy in killing those who you think may be partly responsible.

Again, not excusing anything, just giving perspective. War makes monsters of us all. The American military is not especially evil just because they were caught on tape.

[Fox 6]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Neither is it an accident when guns like those are aimed, fired and used to kill American servicemen who are patrolling roads or guarding food and medicine deliveries. If you've seen your friends blown to pieces by IEDs I think you might find dark joy in killing those who you think may be partly responsible.

Again, not excusing anything, just giving perspective. War makes monsters of us all. The American military is not especially evil just because they were caught on tape.

I think more so than the "revenge" aspect is the aspect that these are young, testosterone filled males who are being trained to " kill kill kill" The culture in the armed forces is one that takes pride in their ability to kill their enemy, and when they are allowed to let loose, they relish it.

It's been this way since Vietnam, and has been well documented. I wouldn't go so far as to call it blood lust, but its almost there. Soldier Memoirs, embedded journalists, and documentaries all seem to portray this common theme, and this isn't just American soldiers, but a lot of armed forces.

[Professor S]

Well that's true. The Marines/military aren't boy scouts. They are trained to do one thing. Kill the enemy. The fact that it looks like a video game probably doesn't make it any harder either. I imagine shooting people up close and personal is a lot more affecting.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Neither is it an accident when guns like those are aimed, fired and used to kill American servicemen who are patrolling roads or guarding food and medicine deliveries.

You're right. But those are insurgents, militia, and 'terrorists'. Not members of a professionally paid army.

Originally Posted by Professor S

If you've seen your friends blown to pieces by IEDs I think you might find dark joy in killing those who you think may be partly responsible.

If that is the case you're clearly mentally unstable and unfit to hold a gun let alone be around sharp objects and other human beings. Especially - as stated - if you're a member of a professional army, rather than a militia or rebellion.

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American military is not especially evil just because they were caught on tape.

No, the military isn't evil because they were caught on tape. You're absolutely right. Those involved in this, however - are. Finding joy in taking another human life is psychopathic.

[Dylflon]

I understand the risks these guys live with every day.

I can even understand thinking that guy's camera was something else. If that's all there was to it I could chalk it up to being a mistake of war.

But those gunners are psychos. They want an excuse to kill. They made shit up saying there were a bunch of guys with AK47s which there were not. They opened up on a whole group of people who looked like they were just talking and then again when they were wounded.

There is no way to contextualize this to make these soldiers seem like they were doing even remotely adequate job or like they are in any way decent human beings.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

There is no way to contextualize this to make these soldiers seem like they were doing even remotely adequate job or like they are in any way decent human beings.

If those comments are aimed at me, I never said they were decent human beings, I simply wanted to give some perspective and look at war objectively as possible. Looking at that video, objectivity is difficult even for me. The only reason why I felt it necessary to do so was because of your "Fuck the military" comment which is a severe generalization. I'm glad you've retreated to just condemning those involved.

As for calling them psychos, well I reserve judgement for those who have been able to see the entire event in context and those who have been in harm's way and been asked to kill nameless and faceless people. There is a reason why soldiers are trained to kill with little to no remorse: Their enemy is trying to kill them with little remorse as well. It is the definition of necessary evil in wartime, and I can only speculate on how that might affect you, and no one else can either unless they've been in the same situation.

I suppose I'm less concerned with the comments the soldiers made than whether or not their actions broke the rules of engagement. Motivations do little to sway me. Actions are all we can judge, and right now we don't know the whole story, and as Xantar pointed out all reports are they followed proper procedure. That said, the video that has been shown is damning.