Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us

[TheSlyMoogle]

Well I'm pretty sure we'll never complete the argument here with much resolution but I will go ahead and tell my story about college:

So I graduated 6th in my class in high school. I wasn't able to take AP Calc II due to my only opportunity to take AP Calc 1 was my last semester of High school. There were a total of 8 AP classes offered in my high school until our last year of school when 5 students in my class convinced our upper level math teacher to take a college class to allow her to teach Calc II. Anyway, the way it was supposed to work out I could take Calc I in my last semester and still be Tied with the other 5 students in my grade for Valedictorian. Anyway not that big of a deal still because I was set to be one of 3 students to take AP spanish and that would have still tied me with the other 5 as they couldn't well anyway they got it worked around with the school so that they could take AP spanish still, by doing like a co-Spanish 3/AP class. Still not a big deal as being Valedictorian only got you a 1 time 500 dollar scholarship. So don't know why even telling this, except that I busted my ass through High school (Well not really, not like it was ever hard to get an A anyway.)

Anyway I got a 31 on my final ACT which I took after having Calc (Which helped boost my math score a lot) so I was offered a full ride to Morehead State University. Which wasn't my school of choice, but I took it. Well upon completely the FAFSA my parents income was considered too high so they dropped my Scholarships by 5 grand. 2500 each semester because my parents estimated contribution was 5600 or so. That sad part is, my father had only had the job that put us above poverty level for about 2 years. My mother's salary has been a constant 15 grand since I was 2, and his was only around 18 grand until my sophomore year of high school. My mom didn't finish high school, and my father didn't finish technical school, quite possibly because my parents are severely ignorant. Every friend I have ever had that met my parents have no idea how I happened. So, anyway, I took out loans for both semesters. I wont lie my first semester I goofed off a lot, and didn't take it as seriously as I should (Basically treated it like my high school). I ended up getting a couple of As, 2 Bs, and 2 Cs. Not really so bad, especially considering, but still low enough to temporarily stop my scholarship. Which was no big deal I had the cash saved up. The next semester I slammed out all As in 6 courses and I also switched majors from chemistry to Psychology, because it turns out the only professor at Morehead that taught Chem 111 and 112 was also the only professor to never give above a C in his intro classes. Which I can understand kinda, he's perhaps the hardest teacher I've ever had, but for many students a C = a scholarship killer. Anyway I chose my second semester to tell my mother I was gay because I had started seeing someone. Well my mother didn't call me for about 2 weeks, and one day about a week before finals I got a call from my father telling me I wasn't welcome at home anymore.

So anyway, moved in with the guy I was seeing, when I applied for the fafsa that year I didn't include my parents income as I was now technically independent. Well turns out the government does that for you

I pleaded my case to the financial aid officers over the summer, was basically told that I would have to prove I hadn't received any help from my parents within the past year, and as I couldn't do that, I couldn't be independent. So unable to get enough money to cover school through loans because I had no credit I had to sit out an entire year. So I spent the year working at Cracker Barrel as a waiter, saved up quite a bit of money as I had no expenses, and I also started using credit cards to make any purchases and paid them off completely at the end of the month to build credit. My plan was just to go to school here in Virginia, but well relationship ended and I went back to KY. Thinking that I would get financial aid to cover school as it had been over a year since I had had so much a single word with my parents, and with all the money I had saved, I figured that I was in great shape.

Well the financial aid officers basically couldn't find a way to prove that I was now independent, because apparently the government doesn't care that you got kicked out of your house for being gay. I was told my only hope at getting financial aid without having my parents tacked on was to wait until I was 24. Well I had a little over 10 grand saved, and couldn't wait that long. (I also had paid off my first loan by this point).

So anyway what to say, I had to buy a ratty car that gave me epic trouble, Apparently my credit was only good enough for the very first student loan I got, and I ended up blowing everything I had to stay in school, including using credit cards to pay for some semesters, and one surprise 6000 dollar donation from an ex boyfriend who knew I couldn't afford to go to school another semester (Which was my last semester I was enrolled, and the story of that is a completely different story but probably the nicest thing anyone has ever done for me). Anyway only being able to work on the weekends to focus on my studies (I worked friday night 8 hours, and almost 30 hours on saturday and sunday combined), I basically tapped out. When I couldn't go back I got a second job, but of course the loan payments started pouring in, and the credit card bills etc.


So I've been through everything, talked to a lot of different people. Lawyers, financial aid officers, been in front of the school board even. Nothing I have tried has worked. I'm 9 classes from graduation, and in the year I've been out tuition at this tiny public university has increased by almost 2 grand. Factoring in books it's a little over 1000 dollars to just take 1 class. It's going to cost around 10000 dollars for me to finish school.


And well, this has all happened because one day Dick Nixon decided that people the age of 18 could screw the system by claiming independence and getting a free ride to college, so he decided to draw up the very federal law that has fucked me for the past 5 years basically.

However I did find out that if my parents had allowed me to be a legally emancipated minor before the age of 18 that I would have been able to go to school for free EVEN IF MY GPA HAD DROPPED TO THE POINT OF STRAIGHT Ds THE GOVERNMENT WOULD STILL FLIT THE BILL FOR 4 YEARS! Or had they let my very poor grandparents legally adopt me before the age of 18 I could have gone to school for free. There are about 10 other ways you can get around it.

I'm 9 classes away, since my first semester I've only had 2 grades of a B, calc 1 and 2 (Numbers get jumbled up in my head really badly and I take a lot of time to do problems to get the right answers my discrete mathematics teacher actually let me take the tests outside of the hour time limit but my calc teachers weren't having it, so mostly the Bs were attributed to my lack of actually finishing tests, but what I had done was right at least), and my gpa is a healthy 3.8 which is in the top 2 percentile at a university that barely finishes 30% of the students who enter, and I can't get a fucking scholarship or loan from the school or government because of the FAFSA? Fuck that. My parents barely clear 55,000 dollars a year anyway. Which is fine for them, but when you don't have parents who can cosign for your loans because they don't want you in their lives because you're gay, it really sucks.

And I understand that if the law was different that people would abuse the hell out of it, but the worst part is there are so many kids I went to school with who partied all the fucking time, and didn't go to half their classes, and didn't care who still couldn't get kicked out because it was ok if their GPA sucked as long as it was a 2.0. FUCKING DUMB.

And yes I've even gone as far as to talk to gay organizations and stuff, but pretty much all their scholarships are needs based as well. WTF is with all these needs based Scholarships these days and why do all of them go by the FAFSA?

[Professor S]

Overall, reading your story I think the real monkey wrench was your relationship with your parents (and bureaucracy that I talked about as an inhibitor to the AD earlier, and how it relates to esclalating education costs, but that is another topic all together), which is very unfortunate and I hope they will come to their senses so your family can be healthy and happy. But that said, I'm not sure your circumstances could be described as normal and applied to the American Dream as a whole, even though it certainly affects you.

I'm glad to see you never gave up, and hope you still won't give up now. You are SO CLOSE! My advice would be to try and work out a way to finish on your own terms and screw the aid that seems to be blocking you mentally as well as financially. Transfer credits, finish at night or on-line and get what you can for you time, effort and suffering. Will it be exactly what you envisioned? No, but you will get something out of it even if its a new direction and new options open to you.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Overall, reading your story I think the real monkey wrench was your relationship with your parents (and bureaucracy that I talked about as an inhibitor to the AD earlier, and how it relates to esclalating education costs, but that is another topic all together), which is very unfortunate and I hope they will come to their senses so your family can be healthy and happy. But that said, I'm not sure your circumstances could be described as normal and applied to the American Dream as a whole, even though it certainly affects you.

I'm glad to see you never gave up, and hope you still won't give up now. You are SO CLOSE! My advice would be to try and work out a way to finish on your own terms and screw the aid that seems to be blocking you mentally as well as financially. Transfer credits, finish at night or on-line and get what you can for you time, effort and suffering. Will it be exactly what you envisioned? No, but you will get something out of it even if its a new direction and new options open to you.

Meh what's done is done, and actually I just turned 24 so at the very least next year I think I should qualify for financial aid by myself. I figured as long as I finish by the time I'm 30 it's all good.

As far as my family is concerned I was never close with them anyway. Honestly the last 4 years I was living at home (14-18) I spent the majority of my time playing games, hanging out online or reading books.

I simply couldn't care less if I ever talk to them again, and mostly just glad I have good friends and continue to make them.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

Also, we have to define what the American Dream really is. After all, I'm sure many people who say they'll never "make it" likely have an iPhone in their pocket and a car. For previous generations a modest house and a car in every garage was the dream. Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV.

There are just too many examples of people making the American Dream, whatever that may be, come true for it to be myth. Our ducation levels have never been higher (can be accredited to the GI Bill and government grants/loans) and wealth, even with the recession, has skyrocketed over time for every income level. Now is the American Dream more difficult for the poor (I refuse to call them the "least of us", that is insulting)? Undoubtedly, but no one said that everyone is the same, only that we have the equal opportunity under the law, not under the fairness. We would all love for everyone in the world to have the same starting point in life, but that will never happen whether by chance (status/wealth at birth) or by act of God (intelligence and health level).

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

What is this American dream? Is it the broadening class gap between the rich and the poor? The rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer. Is the American dream living in country that lives beyond its means? Our rampant consumerism, and we have been a consumerist nation for the past several decades, has resulted in us exploiting the labor of poor people (oh noes, slave labor in sweatshops, there's one example of privelage or lack thereof) as well as the environment. Or how about the waste we have accumulated (garbage) and the damage we have done to the environment to have all our stuff. Is the American dream to own a bunch of objects: iPods, cars, houses, cellphones, etc. Is it to be a consumerist driven society that wants and wants and wants? We are an A-D-D society that no longer values art or reading or philosophy or religion, and in my opinion education to an extent. How normal is it for youth to read books and bask in the wonders of education? Now it's a bunch of standardized testing to get your kid into college so he can get a job so he can make money so he can BUY SHIT HE DOES NOT NEED. Is that the American dream? Is the American dream really to become the CEO of a company and get paid a ridiculous salary that NO ONE is worth/deserves, or is it just to have basic things like security in your neighborhood, food on the table, a right to your own decision regarding your job, and a freedom to express yourself.

If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism. That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola.

Am I cynical?

I really did not want to get involved in this thread...but TheSlyMoogle has done a lot of the work for me so why not.

Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity)

Originally Posted by Professor S

Overall, reading your story I think the real monkey wrench was your relationship with your parents (and bureaucracy that I talked about as an inhibitor to the AD earlier, and how it relates to esclalating education costs, but that is another topic all together), which is very unfortunate and I hope they will come to their senses so your family can be healthy and happy. But that said, I'm not sure your circumstances could be described as normal and applied to the American Dream as a whole, even though it certainly affects you.

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.


By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others.

So while I'm all for individualism (I really am, I'm going into Psychology because I like helping people, I like that individual connection, and sociology is too theoretical and idealistic for me) and rooting on the people who do make an effort to get an education and succeed, I'm also empathetic to those who fall victim to depression, suicide, gang violence, drugs, prison, etc.

Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.

As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

Haha I wasn't going to get into this as was done with the thread, but you pretty much said everything I would have. It is the norm, most people who I've met in my life since have been like "Oh yeah I have a friend whose parents did the same thing"

It's quite common for most people, especially in this part of the US. Hell, until 1973 Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.

Basically due to our overly religious society mostly, and because it's just the next thing to hate. "Oh not cool to hate people of other races anymore? Fine... I'll hate someone else. Oh gay people, that seems hateable. Let's do that."

That's an entirely different discussion.

I will say that I am fortunate enough to have not run into many people in my lifetime that have viewed me in a negative way because of my sexual preference. At least, not at face, and really in the end societal tolerance through societal pressure is fine with me Hahaha.


Also I wish everyone could have an iPod. Also that it was cool for everyone to just jam out all the time. Think the world would be a better place if there was more music.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

What is this American dream? Is it the broadening class gap between the rich and the poor? The rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer.

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

Is the American dream living in country that lives beyond its means?

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Our rampant consumerism, and we have been a consumerist nation for the past several decades, has resulted in us exploiting the labor of poor people (oh noes, slave labor in sweatshops, there's one example of privelage or lack thereof) as well as the environment.

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

If anything, I'd say India is better at pursuing the American Dream than we are right now and China's continued assimilation of free market philosophies are rapidly improving their civil rights status, but again, everything is relative.

Or how about the waste we have accumulated (garbage) and the damage we have done to the environment to have all our stuff. Is the American dream to own a bunch of objects: iPods, cars, houses, cellphones, etc. Is it to be a consumerist driven society that wants and wants and wants?

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

We are an A-D-D society that no longer values art or reading or philosophy or religion, and in my opinion education to an extent. How normal is it for youth to read books and bask in the wonders of education?

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Now it's a bunch of standardized testing to get your kid into college so he can get a job so he can make money so he can BUY SHIT HE DOES NOT NEED.

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Is that the American dream? Is the American dream really to become the CEO of a company and get paid a ridiculous salary that NO ONE is worth/deserves, or is it just to have basic things like security in your neighborhood, food on the table, a right to your own decision regarding your job, and a freedom to express yourself.

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism.

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola.

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others.

By your standard I suppose thats true. I apply my own standard to my motivations.

Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Pissing into the wind only gets you wet.

[Seth]

Good thought, 'concentrating on your own sphere of influence'.

I like the notion that I'm free to choose my success and failure, accepting that not everything in life is controllable. The 'love your neighbor' mindset is what elevates a more libertarian society above what Marxist thought can ever achieve. To regiment distribution of wealth, above one's freedom to choose to pursue wealth, is a recipe for disaster.

The political phenomena that scratches the back of those educated(broad connotation) is a natural one. The way I see it, getting enough people tussed enough to push for a re-distribution of wealth is not only foolish(considering who would direct the change) but also counter-productive to a widespread charitable mindset.

There's a woman who's really into urban gardening in detroit. She has built her garden through hard work, in one of the more dangerous blocks in the city. People don't touch her shit because she continually acts with generosity, being able to do so from her hard work. It's like some natural balance that dictates that no one can mess with the garden lady because that affects the entire community that otherwise wouldn't be recipient of her fresh tasty food. To me, this is an example of the American dream working despite a possible negative attitude which would have scoffed at the idea of creating an unprotected garden in such a dangerous milieu.
Positive attitude and awareness of the self's ability to make change, even if it's within a small 'sphere of influence', is what defines America's successes. One can look at the bully-like attitude that has ravaged much of the developing world in order to procur wealth for the already wealthy, as prof mentioned, a rather large disparity(70% compared to 30%)....but that's a phenomena of people's ability to make choices, and while it's sick and disgusting(in its resulting disparity), I don't believe it's the defining character of America. Also, to remove that motivation is to risk everything worth standing for.
I don't see things getting much better for the average bloke, I see the government skillfully and methodically increasing the control it has over one's ability to pursue potential wealth abundance... ie knowledge affording food that isn't GMO empty nutrition. I think the biggest issue as a nation(collective western nations) is the push to keep people sick enough to support a self created treatment industry. The purposeful ignorance of the average consumer as to what creates lifetime health and happiness has been a huge component in not only America's inability to keep pace with countries like India but it has completely undermined the future prospects of freedom within 'free' countries. The level of censoring and abuse that the government can inflict on the people is a result of passive negativity and the idea that change is impossible in an environment which cators to an elite wallstreet whose support for the American dream has been turned on its head by its own greed. The wealth disparity that the uber rich are in part creating is the same change that has weakened the nation as well as peoples' opinion of 'the dream'. There's always going to be greedy assholes, and subsequent poor. The big question is what you're going to do about it? Realistic change through real political upheaval(partisan elections don't count) is a quaint musing, hardly possible in the year 2010 onward.

It amounts to the influence one has based on continual choice. grassroots grassroots. It can start in a single small community where people are influenced enough to have a charitable outlook, simply because of the positive attitude that America still allows for an individual. Being in Thailand, and facing severe penalties for jokingly saying something insulting about the king, is an example of the relative freedom we have. As much as our doors can now be legally busted down without court order, habeus corpus out the window, etc, there's still a level of choice that's unknown in much of the world. Count blessings not curses?
sorry for not really adding much to the discussion...just my morning thought.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity)

Madison is not a cornfield you silly head. While Madison is ~83% white, that statistic does not take into account our significant international population. To be fair, I wouldn't defend the city or its diversity in a normal conversation, but someone has to stand up to those mean people from Illinois.

[KillerGremlin]

I like you Prof...because at least you're fair. And I find that by putting my thoughts out here, I learn stuff (like your response and Seth's post). I'm pretty reactionary which is another reason why I wouldn't survive in law...but I digress.

Originally Posted by Professor S

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

True. My post was pretty reactionary...I guess it just seems that way (the broadening gap) given all the media focus on the CEOs and the bankers.

Originally Posted by Professor S

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Agreed...especially on a person level. People make bad choices. I think there is a lot of deception and things that influence people to make bad choices, and it questions the motives of credit card companies and banks, but it is what it is and if people were wiser (like my parents, and it sounds like you and your family as well) then it'd be better in general. On the other hand, do you think our government and our economy is structured in a way that is beyond our means? Is there a point where this country will financially hit a roadblock and not be able to resolve the issue? I'm asking your opinion, not argumentatively because I do not know.

Originally Posted by Professor S

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

My understanding is the brain drain actually has caused India to take a financial hit as a country? Again, I'm not really trying to provoke an argument, I've just heard conflicting reports. Also, there exists sweatshops outside of China and India where standards are a lot different. We could probably do a whole thread on labor across the world, and globalization and all that. I think you'd find I agree with you about a lot of the issues because I personally believe that as we progress as a global society, much of what determines a country's value will be education.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

And I agree with this! I say AMEN! I think the problem is our society has defined what people need/want. Especially current generations. I know when I was in high school there was little leeway for the artists or musicians or the people who wanted to pursue something outside of college like plumbing or electricity. It was a push from high school to college to the job that you supposedly need and want at the end of the tunnel. For many people, I think, society conditions them to believe they have this set path. And it gets worse and worse because our education now focuses on standardized testing and bullshit tests like the ACT or the GRE to determine intelligence (these tests are as flawed as the IQ tests). I think our country is becoming a bit oppressed, I think it is very covert. Again...I could go on this for hours, we could dedicate a thread to this.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Agreed. Again, all this standardized testing and merit of intelligence doesn't help either, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Professor S

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Touche, I guess?

Originally Posted by Professor S

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

My comment about the CEO thing was kind of a sarcastic response to your statement which was:
"Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV."

I don't think people really want to become overpaid CEOs or to get on TV. I think they just want the basic stuff like what you want: a family, retirement, a beer. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of everyone, but neither can you.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

I'll agree to disagree and add a twist. I think we are a consumerist driven society but I think we are a species that is driven by want anyway. I think that drive could be good in that it gives us something to live for. And I'll leave it at that because again...we could make a whole new thread.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

My statement was both brash and a disclaimer to myself. Basically, my disclaimer is that I want stuff and I enjoy wanting it. I don't consider myself better or unique than anyone else in the world, and my observations about our consumerist driven society are true to myself. Money doesn't make me happy...writing, music, exercising, my family, my girlfriend, my pursuits of education on my own behalf...these things make me happy. I also enjoy horology, a recent hobby, which requires money. I realize watches are a somewhat superficial hobby, but it could be argued that video gaming or comics or anything is. At the same time, I do think that a lot of the things I want are things I don't need, and that want does help motivate myself to work. I guess it is just conditioning.

Originally Posted by Professor S

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

I like the Constitution.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

I guess the only thing I would say to this is that sometimes your culture and government influences you in a way that does impact what you can or cannot do. Your mobility in society is greatly influenced by your race, class, sexuality, etc. Some people have to overcome additional burdens (like a black queer vs. white straight person) and that is how privilege factors into the pursuit of the American dream. That's my opinion. And as far as "you own your future," I would disagree. You don't chose your skin color or your sexuality, and so part of your future is dictated by your personal choices as well as the world you live in. 100 years ago, if you were born with a mental disorder you were thrown into a prison for life and tortured. Pre-Stonewall, if you were gay and you went to a club you got throw in jail. Today, if you you use crack cocaine you face more time in prison than someone who uses regular cocaine (and guess which communities have the highest rates of use of crack cocaine).

Ultimately, you and I are going to disagree forever unless my opinion changes (and I'm open to change....lol...I've changed on quite a few issues that I think even you and I have discussed during my tenure on these boards). I respect the people who do rise above their struggles, they are the examples that we as a society should live by.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

And this is my #1 problem with sociology. It is a bit self-serving and self-loathing. At the same time, I hope that by recognizing the broader social issues that keep certain groups repressed we can move forward as a society. You said I'm very negative, but I think that's a fairly optimistic way to look at sociology and things like civil rights. Also, when you have groups in the age bracket of 12-18 (inner city kids who go to Chicago Public Schools) that see gang violence frequently, or Latino children attending schools in California who see murders (and it is common enough of occurrence that it happens to about 1 in 3 youth), it becomes less of a self-defeating exercise and more of a "what the heck is wrong with society?" conversation.

Originally Posted by Professor S

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Again, I think there is some truth in this and that the truth in it is inspiring. But overall I'm going to agree to disagree. And pleasantly so if I may add.

If this was a real pub I'd say let's put our differences aside and have a beer. This whole Internet thing is really throwing off the fun of a good argument, eh?

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Bond

Madison is not a cornfield you silly head. While Madison is ~83% white, that statistic does not take into account our significant international population. To be fair, I wouldn't defend the city or its diversity in a normal conversation, but someone has to stand up to those mean people from Illinois.

I was semi-giving you a hard time.

Most universities aren't all that diverse to begin with (the main bias being...it's full of smart college students).

[Professor S]

Hey KG, I think I definitely see where you're coming from now, and I think we probably agree on more than we think we do. And for the record, I think this has been a great argument!

ahem

sorry

"Civil discussion"

EDIT: Almost forgot some stats on India's economy... According to most recent stats India's poverty situation has been improving steadily for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BPL_Data_GOI.png

And for the last decade the rate of growth has been very high

http://www.indexmundi.com/india/gdp_...owth_rate.html

That's all the really hard India data I could find. Its much more promising, but certainly not ideal.

[Dylflon]

North American society is sort of structured to keep the class structure in place (with an erosion of the middle class). University education is so expensive that in most cases only well off kids go (unless you amass major debt). For example, in a sociology tutorial I was in, the TA said that working class kids don't go to university which I contested since I'm from a working class family. The TA then asked for anyone in the class to raise their hands if they paid any part of their tuition.

Only me and one other guy raised our hands in a class of about 25. The other guy was going to school through student loans making me the only person in the class working their way through school. Luckily I get help from my parents.


In the States if you're not well off, God forbid you get sick because you will be ruined. And it's hard to chase the american dream from financial ruin. Wages are becoming less livable, and there aren't as many single income families any more.

Government incentives are more for corporations and the rich than for he working class. Inflation isn't being matched by pay raises.


North America is a place of opportunity in that we can pursue our destinies to the best of our abilities and enjoy a fairly democratic society (I say fairly because while democratic structures are in place, I feel out peoples are being less and less represented by our governments).

But there are so many hurdles in place to keep normal people from getting rich that the 'American Dream' seems more like a carrot dangled in front of you to keep hope alive while the top wealthiest 1% of the population can enjoy their government tax incentives and rob the rest of the population blind (specifically your unregulated banking industry).



The American Dream as it plays out for Johnny from Detroit. Johnny is born to two working parents who don't have the time to raise him right. He muddles through an underfunded and inadequate public schooling system, graduates and can't afford to be sent to university. Jobs are low in his area since all manufacturing jobs are now in other places so Johnny most likely has to work for minimum wage to support his college tuition augmented by student loans. Johnny graduates in debt and even if he does moderately well for himself will still probably be underpaid in whatever profession he pursues or at least won't make enough to support a family on a single income. So Johnny and his wife both have to work and don't have to properly raise John Jr. who muddles through an underfunded and inadequate public schooling system etc, etc, etc.


P.S. Johnny lost his pension because of a failed banking industry :O

[Dylflon]

Don't worry, I realize I'm privileged and there's so many worse places I could live.


I just feel that it's getting harder and harder for people to even get what they need anymore let alone rise in the social ladder or whatever.

I feel there are opportunities for success but those opportunities aren't equal and in fact in both our countries it is substantially more difficult for people not born into much to make much of themselves. This was not the case in the 50s/60s, etc but back then we had unions and most of our jobs were still here.

In closing, it's becoming nearly impossible to reconcile any form of the American Dream with people born into poor families.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

North American society is sort of structured to keep the class structure in place (with an erosion of the middle class). University education is so expensive that in most cases only well off kids go (unless you amass major debt). For example, in a sociology tutorial I was in, the TA said that working class kids don't go to university which I contested since I'm from a working class family. The TA then asked for anyone in the class to raise their hands if they paid any part of their tuition.

Only me and one other guy raised our hands in a class of about 25. The other guy was going to school through student loans making me the only person in the class working their way through school. Luckily I get help from my parents.


In the States if you're not well off, God forbid you get sick because you will be ruined. And it's hard to chase the american dream from financial ruin. Wages are becoming less livable, and there aren't as many single income families any more.

Government incentives are more for corporations and the rich than for he working class. Inflation isn't being matched by pay raises.


North America is a place of opportunity in that we can pursue our destinies to the best of our abilities and enjoy a fairly democratic society (I say fairly because while democratic structures are in place, I feel out peoples are being less and less represented by our governments).

But there are so many hurdles in place to keep normal people from getting rich that the 'American Dream' seems more like a carrot dangled in front of you to keep hope alive while the top wealthiest 1% of the population can enjoy their government tax incentives and rob the rest of the population blind (specifically your unregulated banking industry).



The American Dream as it plays out for Johnny from Detroit. Johnny is born to two working parents who don't have the time to raise him right. He muddles through an underfunded and inadequate public schooling system, graduates and can't afford to be sent to university. Jobs are low in his area since all manufacturing jobs are now in other places so Johnny most likely has to work for minimum wage to support his college tuition augmented by student loans. Johnny graduates in debt and even if he does moderately well for himself will still probably be underpaid in whatever profession he pursues or at least won't make enough to support a family on a single income. So Johnny and his wife both have to work and don't have to properly raise John Jr. who muddles through an underfunded and inadequate public schooling system etc, etc, etc.

P.S. Johnny lost his pension because of a failed banking industry :O

My such rose colored glasses, lol.

A couple of things to add to the discussion to lend perspective.

Education rates in America:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educati..._United_States

Its not as steep an upward curve as I'd loike to see, but we do see that education has become more accessible and not less.

School funding:

Public schools in this country currently spend more than twice as much money per student as private schools. Yet many parents are willing to dig deeply for the privilege of sending their children to private schools where far fewer resources are expended on them.

Why?

Spending on public schools in the U.S. exceeds that of any other country on earth. Since 1970, teacher salaries have grown 18 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars, while teacher-faculty ratios have declined by one-fourth. During the 1960s and '70s, federal aid to education rose by 83 percent, and federal aid doubled as a proportion of the nation's total education budget. As expenditures rose, however, student performance declined precipitously.

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci...#ixzz0iFbssv3P

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

My such rose colored glasses, lol.

A couple of things to add to the discussion to lend perspective.

Education rates in America:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educati..._United_States

Its not as steep an upward curve as I'd loike to see, but we do see that education has become more accessible and not less.

School funding:



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci...#ixzz0iFbssv3P

That Denver Post article is frighteningly accurate. I never thought about how expenses can affect education like that, but it makes sense. I believe the CPS spends more money per student than most of the schools in the outlying areas.