The Pope Covered Up Pedophile Priests

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

No, that's not what I'm insinuating. I'm just saying it's one more of a multitude of reasons why we would be better off without religion.

These people would molest children regardless of religion.
That's like blaming Marilyn Manson's music (or even music in general) for the Columbine shootings.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

These people would molest children regardless of religion.
That's like blaming Marilyn Manson's music (or even music in general) for the Columbine shootings.

Even though I don't agree with Vamp.. I'd say his example is more like blaming public/private schooling for the shootings at columbine.

If there were no public schools, there would be no place for these kids to do such an insane act of terror.. And if there was no religion, there'd be no pedophile priests that people trust their kids with.

So with that said... I don't agree with Vamp. lol

[Typhoid]

I'd say his example is more like blaming public/private schooling for the shootings at columbine.

The reason I said what I said is because people did blame Marilyn Manson's music for the shootings at Columbine.

But yes, yours is much more apt than mine is.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Without religion you wouldn't have had these people in this situation. You wouldn't have people being tricked into thinking that living a celibate life is somehow moral, and you wouldn't have people trusting their kids to some stranger who has no legitimate reason to be trusted with them - other than that they are supposedly close to some invisible guy in the sky.

Religion didn't make them molest children - but it presented a scenario which shouldn't exist: child molesters who are deemed trustworthy because they believe in something non-existent (or at least say that they do), and a huge, powerful organization which is also founded on something non-existent that protects them.

Good points. Your criticisms were more aimed at the organization of religion rather than the belief structure, and that is surely a valid argument.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

These people would molest children regardless of religion.
That's like blaming Marilyn Manson's music (or even music in general) for the Columbine shootings.

Yes, they probably would, but a huge difference is that one of the most powerful organizations in the world wouldn't be helping to cover up for them, nor would they have such a ready supply of victims being practically handed to them.

Even though I don't agree with Vamp.. I'd say his example is more like blaming public/private schooling for the shootings at columbine.

If there were no public schools, there would be no place for these kids to do such an insane act of terror.. And if there was no religion, there'd be no pedophile priests that people trust their kids with.

So with that said... I don't agree with Vamp. lol

I wouldn't really carry it that far - there is risk associated with everything. I think the world benefits from having public schools far more than it would without them - even though it provides a venue for crazy people to hurt others. Not only that, but officials have begun to realize the dangers of having a lot of helpless kids and teenagers in a centralized location with other possibly mental and easily influenced children. The result is better security, metal detectors, etc.

Organized religion, on the other hand, I don't see how the world has benefited from it more than it has suffered.

I don't think religion is innately evil - if I did I would have very few friends and hate my parents. But for whatever reason people are inspired to organize around things they find important, so it happens with religion as well. I was talking to a friend at work about it the other day - he's a very religious person, but he hasn't been to church once in 2010, and he was talking about how he's happier than he has been in a very long time.

[manasecret]

I wish more things had the power to draw people together like religion does, but things that don't rely on faith and belief.

As in, I see good in the video game culture and specifically what Penny Arcade has done with PAX and Child's Play.

I see good in Wikipedia, Firefox, and other such coming together of people for a common good.

But these in the end don't have the same numbers that religion draw.

[Xantar]

So here's a question for you: would this have happened if Catholic priests didn't have to be male and celibate? What if priests were allowed to marry and have families? What if some of them were women? If Cardinal Ratzinger had been a father, do you think he could have condoned the cover up of child rapists?

[Bond]

Do we not have any Catholics here? I don't formally consider myself Catholic, but I have been strongly influenced by and benefited from the Catholic / Jesuit tradition of education and culture. I'll post my thoughts from inside and outside the Catholic church when I arrive home.

[thatmariolover]

Originally Posted by Xantar

So here's a question for you: would this have happened if Catholic priests didn't have to be male and celibate? What if priests were allowed to marry and have families? What if some of them were women? If Cardinal Ratzinger had been a father, do you think he could have condoned the cover up of child rapists?

No, I don't think it would have happened if Catholic Priests didn't have to be celibate men. But that's part of a much bigger problem. Would it have happened if Catholicism wasn't so stagnant? So utterly and completely incapable of changing with the times? I mean, the Catholic church practically ignores the outside world entirely, It's almost entirely turned inward; a circle of priests wearing mirror's on their backs, reflecting the world back at itself and never looking at it for what it really is.

If a widely accepted scientific belief is suddenly called into question, do we ignore it or cover it up? No, we adapt or find a new theory that fits better. But in the church, if something happens that might cause doubt it's usually covered up or glossed over.

Originally Posted by Bond

Do we not have any Catholics here? I don't formally consider myself Catholic, but I have been strongly influenced by and benefited from the Catholic / Jesuit tradition of education and culture. I'll post my thoughts from inside and outside the Catholic church when I arrive home.

I was baptized Catholic and attended a Catholic church fairly regularly until I was 9 or 10. But that was before I thought for myself a lot and I stopped going around the time that I did. I eventually tried Lutheranism with the ELCA and was confirmed Lutheran, but it was more because the church was next door and we had an absolutely stellar Pastor that was willing to openly discuss theology and its various merits/flaws with me.

[manasecret]

I went to Catholic school all my life until university, and went to Saint Thomas High School in Houston, established by the Basilian Fathers in 1900. We had some odd rivalry with the other all-guys Catholic high school in Houston, Strake Jesuit. (Dear Bond: Damn Jebbies!)

But I don't ever remember talking about the sex scandals much in high school. Maybe the scandals weren't yet blown wide open by 2002? I've always wondered since then if any of the priest teachers I had committed any sexual abuse... there's at least one I wouldn't be surprised at all if he had. He was just... creepy sometimes.

[Typhoid]

First off, Bond - I'm not personally Catholic, but a large section of my family is, and my mom was raised it.

Now, just something I want to touch on:

Organized religion, on the other hand, I don't see how the world has benefited from it more than it has suffered.

That's because Religion doesn't exist to help the masses as a whole. It exists to help a person. Religion is a great thing.

Do priests molest kids? Yes. Is it wrong? 100% undoubtedly sickening.
Is it terrible that the Pope covered it up? Again - completely. However if you were the Pope, would you want to tarnish your entire religion, or would you want to do what you can to try and save face. Obviously it's wrong, and it didn't work out in the end. But I can see where the Pope was coming from. Just because he covered it up doesn't mean he's defending the people, or their actions; he's defending the religion.

This is from a post I made on another forum to do with a different topic, but the thread was on religion:

"Fathers shouldn't beat their children, and people shouldn't kill kittens.
Shit happens.
Religion isn't to blame.
People who let various things control their entire emotions are to blame.
If those people who 'hardcore' follow religion, were into something else - the world would be a shittier place.
Are there Zealots and Extremists? You bet.
But there are fucking marijuana extremists who riot in order to get it legalized.
There are people rioting and killing people for next to no reason.
So to say most of it rests solely on religion is fucked up.
Religions are old, and outdated. Completely.
They help people who need help, and they give hate to people who need hate.
But people are fucked up, and will do fucked up things. "

Now obviously I know that doesn't pertain to child molestation. I wasn't posting that as a defense to it, I was posting that as a defense to the existence of religion as a whole.


Edit:

I do think priests should be able to marry and have families. We're not meant to be celibate. Our entire purpose is procreation. Hell, even the Bible says that. Give everyone the freedom to procreate with human females of near the same age, and move on.

[Xantar]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

However if you were the Pope, would you want to tarnish your entire religion, or would you want to do what you can to try and save face. Obviously it's wrong, and it didn't work out in the end. But I can see where the Pope was coming from. Just because he covered it up doesn't mean he's defending the people, or their actions; he's defending the religion.

I would suggest that he's not defending a religion in that case. He's just defending a human institution, and it would be a mistake to confuse the institution of the Catholic Church with the Catholic faith.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

I do think priests should be able to marry and have families. We're not meant to be celibate. Our entire purpose is procreation. Hell, even the Bible says that. Give everyone the freedom to procreate with human females of near the same age, and move on.

Everyone? Even human females? Duuuuuuuuuude...if we gave human females the freedom to procreate with human females, the world would become a very interesting place very quickly.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by Bond

Do we not have any Catholics here? I don't formally consider myself Catholic, but I have been strongly influenced by and benefited from the Catholic / Jesuit tradition of education and culture. I'll post my thoughts from inside and outside the Catholic church when I arrive home.

I was raised Catholic but I have rejected it for years. I think the institution is silly and the pedophile cases growing by the day.. well, that's quite sickening.

[thatmariolover]

Originally Posted by Xantar

Everyone? Even human females? Duuuuuuuuuude...if we gave human females the freedom to procreate with human females, the world would become a very interesting place very quickly.

Change you can believe in. amirite?

Seriously, though, I have a couple girl friends that are don't lean to the bisexual end of the spectrum that would love to have each others children if it were possible.

[magus113]

I was raised Catholic too but that definitely started getting looked over in the high school years. If I felt it at all, it was kinda gone. I haven't been to church in forever unless it was a funeral and I just...

I dunno. Organized religion is a joke most of the time.