Occupy Wallstreet

[KillerGremlin]

What!? Damn kids need to get off my lawn!



I fear it is going to get violent from the protestor side based on how quickly and frequently the police have been trying to deescalate these protests with violence.

If someone pepper sprayed Rosa Parks for not giving her seat up on the bus....

[Professor S]

Here is a question: People are unlawfully occupying as space, and repeatedly asked to leave. They refuse to leave, and make it a point to do things to resist being removed (such as linking arms, making human walls, etc.).

How do you remove them without some form of violence (dragging someone away against their will is a form of violence)?

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Here is a question: People are unlawfully occupying as space, and repeatedly asked to leave. They refuse to leave, and make it a point to do things to resist being removed (such as linking arms, making human walls, etc.).

How do you remove them without some form of violence (dragging someone away against their will is a form of violence)?

You don't/can't. Which is why protesting is effective.

I think the protesting at the University is somewhat unique. It seems that the University decided to call in the authorities. I doubt the protestors where actually obstructing physical space; I mean walk around them, cripes. But I don't doubt that the protestors were a distraction.

At the end of the day a University is private property and so the police can show up and try to remove the protestors. If the protestors refuse to move and act as dead weight...then the police will take the steps to remove them.

The gray area is "what steps are necessary?"

It doesn't change the fact that America has always celebrated the spirited right to free assembly and to free speech. I almost empathize more with the authorities in the above video than I do with the police removing protestors from New York City.

What is more American than New York City? New York City is the biggest stage in America. If there is a place to express free speech and your right to assembly, New York is the place.

Historically, there has always been "sanctioned" areas where people can protest...and not be seen or heard. That kind of defeats the purpose of protesting. Protesting is supposed to be aggressive, loud, and problematic.

When you saw videos of Civil Rights protestors being sprayed with fire houses and being beat by police...you felt passion and rage. Passion and rage leads to mob beatings, and again, I ask:

If the police continue to deescalate the situation with violence, how long will it be before the protestors mob the police?


So it seems to me that the real question isn't "what can the police do?" The real question is, "what can we do to stop the protestors?"

[Jason1]

That pepper spraying was TOTALLY over the line and completly uncalled for. Pepper spraying a bunch of college students who are just sitting there defenseless? Rediculous. Its a bunch of kids for gods sake, doing nothing wrong. They werent tipping cars or starting fires. Just sitting there. The more I think about it the angrier I get.

Where does it go from here? Kent State? This is America. I hope those police, and whoever higher up than them that authorized them to use pepper spray, are fired immediatley. I also hope they pursure legal action against them.

[Dylflon]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Here is a question: People are unlawfully occupying as space, and repeatedly asked to leave. They refuse to leave, and make it a point to do things to resist being removed (such as linking arms, making human walls, etc.).

How do you remove them without some form of violence (dragging someone away against their will is a form of violence)?

Guys, seriously. If there's a bunch of no-good poor people hanging out outside on this planet Earth in an area that I say is mine, and they won't leave when I want them to, and I don't like what they're saying:

How do I get them to shut up without punching their throats?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Guys, seriously. If there's a bunch of no-good poor people hanging out outside on this planet Earth in an area that I say is mine, and they won't leave when I want them to, and I don't like what they're saying:

How do I get them to shut up without punching their throats?

Yes, because what I wrote and what you wrote are EXACTLY the same.

The question still stands (as I wrote it) and I have yet to hear a good answer, and I don't think pepper spray and billy clubs is a good answer either, but people aren't allowed to do whatever they want simply because they aren't violent. Laws are laws, and if they would simply not squat on the property there probably wouldn't be an issue. In the end, the protesters have to understand they are inviting pepper spray by refusing all other options given to them by those trying to enforce the law. And the pepper spray was likely used because it doesn't cause permanent damage, and it incapacitates you (I know from experience). In the end, it was used to avoid unnecessary violence and injury.

This episode just goes to show that in the end all laws are enforced at the end of a gun.

[KillerGremlin]

You could argue that human interests/rights supersede laws.

And, apparently pepper spray crossed the moral line this time because UC Davis is in an uproar. The police officers who used the pepper spray are on "administrative leave.*" The UC Davis chancellor apologized for the pepper spray...but now professors are speaking out and there are additional protesters. Students are pissed and feel unsafe on campus. Professors were saying that the protesters weren't blocking anything, and you could walk around them.

They were protesting tuition raises I guess. If no one pays for tuition, how is the University going to stay afloat? I think payers of tuition should have the right to protest. There are worker strikes and unions over unjust treatment.

At any rate, it doesn't look so good for the University, which is now on the national stage. Their students, who pay for the University, were pretty maliciously pepper-sprayed. And now the actual Professors who make up the University are speaking out? Sucks to be UC Davis.

*administrative leave is such bullshit....we could have a whole thread on how cops suck.

But back to this point:

You could argue that human interests/rights supersede laws.

This is the rabbit hole.

[Dylflon]

The problem is that public property is the only good place to protest if you would like anyone to pay attention to you.

If you are asking them to protest in private then you are neutering their statement and frankly the very concept of protest.

What the hell do you care that they're protesting on public property anyways?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

You could argue that human interests/rights supersede laws.

You could, but I completely disagree for various reasons.

1) No one has the human right to occupy someone else's property, and conversely people do have the right to protect their property and the government has the right to guarantee others the right to use public property and protect it from damage.

2) We are a nation of laws, not people, but our laws (should) reflect the will of the people. If our nations only serves people and ignores laws that are created by their representatives, then what we have is mob rule/anarchy.

The minute that we lose the ability to choose our own government, I agree with you, but until then we have to let laws prevail.

Back on topic, it occurs to me that the protesters WANT these public confrontations. I actually think the best way to deal with the situation is to kill them with kindness. Schools and cities should provide corporate based sanitation, corporate based porto-potties, lunches from McDonalds and SubWay, Verizon Wireless wifi, etc. It won't be long before people are get bored with the lack of conflict or are shamed into leaving. That and winter is coming.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

What the hell do you care that they're protesting on public property anyways?

I wouldn't if they weren't destroying many of the public spaces through littering, vandalism, defecation/urination. The public areas aren't just for them. I also have an issue with camping out. There is a thin line between protester and vagrant once the bubble tent pops out.

Long story short - If the protesters kept to public property, went home every night, and cleaned up after themselves I think they should be allowed to do it as long as they like. That is their right. My issue is that they are flagrantly violating laws in order to create confrontation for public spectacle.

[Seth]

An article about the start of these OWS protests. Reaffirms something I've assumed about adbusters for a few years. The counter voice is villified(and repainted) through a distorted media lens, and nothing is solved, except driving the still-employed public towards the antithesis of bandana clad curseries. What if we all took a page from Thoreau and refused to pay for these 'wars' that are openly in violation of human rights? Our defense minister recently announced that Canada is going forward with the F-35 program, despite budget shortfalls, which should be worked around minimizing the damage to public supports instead of reaffirming allegiance to NATO atrocities repainted as humanitarian bombings.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27708

[Bond]

Okay, I think we all agree these people have a right to protest (in public places) for a period of time. The question is do you allow the protests to naturally die down (we all know they eventually will), or do the police eventually step in and break up the protests? If the police do step in, how long should they wait to step in, and what means are appropriate for the police to use? If the protesters throw rocks are the police allowed or not allowed to use pepper spray? And this could go on and on ... it's just one giant cluster fuck if you ask me.

More importantly, I really don't think these protests are effective at all - they're just preaching to the choir.

[Typhoid]

While I don't really agree with protesting after a certain point; at some point you've got to get educated and make logical points rather than just sleeping in a tent.


Anyhow, I'm all for any protest if the protesters want to waste as much time as they desire as long as they: Don't impede people from going to/from work, don't stop safety services from providing safety, don't impede roads/bridges; that type of thing.

If they (any protest) start doing any of those (other than get violent/loot etc), I say get 'em the fuck out of there. Fine them all. hand each and every one of them their own ticket. If they rip up the ticket in defiance, arrest them for doing so.

But if real people want to waste their own goddamn time sitting in the cold rain for something they think is a good idea, fuck it - let them be cold, and wet sitting in some dingy park for months at a time.

But if they start breaking the law, shitting in public, loitering in stores, theft etc, bring the fucking law down on them hard. Breaking the law is one thing, but breaking the law in public while under the guise of standing up for 'the people' is sort of retarded, to me.


The thing is, I don't believe these occupy wallstreet douches want 'change'. It seems to me they want to be there long enough so force will have to be used to remove them, because then that will look bad on the government. They seemed to apparently wait for something like a line of students or an old lady to get peppersprayed, so they can stand up, throw their arms in the air and scream cruelty.


When I refer to "They", I don't mean the people in New York at Occupy Wallstreet. I mean everyone else. The 19 - late20somethings who are lazy douches who want to feel like they're a part of their own personal 60's flower power revolution. It's a fucking joke.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

The thing is, I don't believe these occupy wallstreet douches want 'change'. It seems to me they want to be there long enough so force will have to be used to remove them, because then that will look bad on the government. They seemed to apparently wait for something like a line of students or an old lady to get peppersprayed, so they can stand up, throw their arms in the air and scream cruelty.

I don't think this is actually that far from the truth. Earlier this year I was in Madison for the union protests over the collective bargaining bill (this probably didn't receive media attention in Canada, but it was all over the local and national news here). Anyway, the protests peaked at around 100,000+ people per day, a fairly impressive number for a city with only 300,000 or so residents. But, observing the protests first-hand, it was fairly apparent to me that people get wrapped up in the "idea" of protesting, and often lose sight of the original cause. In other words, a lot of these protests just carry on because (1) it gives people something to do and allows them to live in a "fantasy world" for a period of time and (2) people enjoy the positive feedback loop you receive by protesting with like-minded citizens.

[KillerGremlin]

My biggest concern is in line with Seth's, that the protesting will be picked up by the Democrats or Obama and spun as some counter against someone else.

For what it is worth, Congress just hit an all-time low approval rating of 9%.



Congress is in the process of discussing the Stop Online Piracy Act...another act in line with the Patriot Act intended to strip Americans of basic rights.

People continue to not have jobs. Education continues to slip. Politicians continue to ignore the real health care issue: why is medicine so expensive? Why are health costs so expensive? Attacking the pharmaceutical companies isn't advantageous for politicians who receive huge kickbacks from Pharmaceutical companies.

Why does it take almost a billion dollars to run a campaign for presidency these days?

Why is it a trail of money and not a trail of intelligence, education, and science?

Why does Congress get to even vote on the SOPA bill? It's a bunch of old folks who are too old and decrepit to actually understand how the Internet works.

Why are there weekly postings of Police Officers or Judges or Elected Officials clearly abusing their powers posted on social media sites like Youtube?

There is this really good article by Mike Lofgren that you should all read:

http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all...ult/1314907779

Mike Lofgren retired on June 17 after 28 years as a Congressional staffer. He served 16 years as a professional staff member on the Republican side of both the House and Senate Budget Committees.

For what it's worth, the article touches on some important problems with the Political Machine in this country.

There are no easy solutions. It will get worse before it gets better. The protesting is just feelings of angst being expressed outwardly. The retaliation by the police is strange considering they are public servants of the people.


I mean there are a lot of big problems right now. Big issues. So there are a lot of reasons for people to be furious. I'm honestly surprised there hasn't been more protesting and more anger.