BP Oil Spill

[Dylflon]

Yeah, a large part of Louisiana is pretty much ruined, but oil spills seriously almost never happen!

When a Pinto explodes it doesn't devastate an entire region's wild/ocean life and harm local business.


And yes, oil workers are going to have to lose jobs. Be it through a moratorium or for our eventual need to get off of oil.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Yeah, a large part of Louisiana is pretty much ruined, but oil spills seriously almost never happen!

I know you are being sarcastic, but you are actually correct. Are you only right when you don't mean to be? J/K

When a Pinto explodes it doesn't devastate an entire region's wild/ocean life and harm local business.

No, but the Pinto killed over two times as many people (27). And again, we know the comparable safety records of the oil companies on deep water rigs. BP's record was horrific, but but the other companies have great records. There is no reason to believe this will happen again any time in the next 40 years.

I mean, it sure does SOUND like Pres. Obama is doing something when he calls for a moratorium... and I guess that makes good press. The reality is all he's doing is hurting good people.

And yes, oil workers are going to have to lose jobs. Be it through a moratorium or for our eventual need to get off of oil.

There is a difference between gradually moving off of oil and naturally transferring employment from one sector to another and immediately putting people out of work.

If the goal is to "get us off oil", a moratorium is probably the dumbest method one could choose, but again, it sounds good. I guess that's all that matters?

[Dylflon]

Maybe emotion dictates what I want to see.

I see things like this and I want something to happen. I feel in a world where we're all supposed to logical and all supposed to care (which I understand is a fantasy) , I want somebody to say "Hey this is bullshit, we need to change the way we do things".

I will admit, I know next to nothing about oil drilling. I do know that it does create horrible environmental disasters upon occasion such as in the gulf and in the tar sands and rivers of Alberta.

It's just frustrating to hear, especially from people like you who I believe to be people of reason (though we seldom see eye to eye), that the best thing to do is nothing. We pay our dues and get back to business in the interest of people not having to switch careers. It's this kind of pro status quo attitude that I feel gets us into trouble a lot as a species but specifically as North Americans.

I bet even if the disaster was twice as bad as it already is, no more would get done than is getting done now. We can't even regulate this shit anymore. I suppose what we need to happen is have Obama say that we're off oil within the next five years and sink some of that military budget into alternate energy.

I haven't read the thread thoroughly yet, so you might have a sweet argument or your argument may be "we need to be slightly more careful". Either way, I doubt it will be enough for me to stop being wildly upset over this whole catastrophe and in need of some action to be taken that limits what oil barons are allowed to do.

[Typhoid]

The reality is all he's doing is hurting good people.

Opposed to the oil spill itself, which only hurts good and innocent animals and devastates ecosystems and plant life.

But you know, people will get to keep their jobs - so all is well.
Gotta keep the economy strong etc.


It's not about the likelihood that it will happen again, it's the fact it has already happened. Even if t doesn't happen for another 40 years, that's still bad. The point isn't to space out man-made disasters, it's not to have them in the first place. If your pinto blows up and kills you, that sucks - But if your pinto blew up and took 20 city blocks with it [Or ruined the environment to the point everything near the car dies], I'm sure there would be a recall on pintos. This oil spill isn't exploding one person. It's ruining a lot more than that.

But explain to me why this moratorium is wrong, aside from 'People will lose jobs'. There are more important things in this world than a handful of people [in the scheme of things] and their having or not having jobs. The well-being of the environment, for one. I can understand people don't want to lose their job, ever. But if they work it into a way where once there are good safety regulations in place so that this type of thing doesn't happen again - they should get precedence for their jobs back if they want them.

But I mean hey, if 17% of the Louisiana population [who are employed by oil-related work] would rather not look for a new job, and continue to contribute to the growing devastation to their local area; nobody can convince them otherwise.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

But I mean hey, if 17% of the Louisiana population [who are employed by oil-related work] would rather not look for a new job, and continue to contribute to the growing devastation to their local area; nobody can convince them otherwise.

Well said sir.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

It's just frustrating to hear, especially from people like you who I believe to be people of reason (though we seldom see eye to eye), that the best thing to do is nothing. We pay our dues and get back to business in the interest of people not having to switch careers. It's this kind of pro status quo attitude that I feel gets us into trouble a lot as a species but specifically as North Americans.

At what point did I say we need to do nothing? I said we shouldn't shut down EVERYONE who drills because BP screwed the pooch. Consequences should affect those who created the disaster, not those who follow the rules.

You want to blame Oil with a capital "O" for the mistakes and negligence of a small group of people. I want the people who acted negligently to pay, and then have everyone in the industry learn from their negligence and mistakes.

I bet even if the disaster was twice as bad as it already is, no more would get done than is getting done now. We can't even regulate this shit anymore. I suppose what we need to happen is have Obama say that we're off oil within the next five years and sink some of that military budget into alternate energy.

1) The oil industry is heavily regulated, and as I pointed out before the regulation may have created the environment for this disaster to take place

2) Despite media opinion, Pres. Obama is not magic. He can not nod his head and take the world off of oil. Besides, Government intervention has proven to be the least timely of all when it comes to innovation. We need to create a environment where industry can see great and immediate rewards for investing in realistic alternative energy. Even if someone discovers the world's most perfect clean and safe energy source tomorrow, it will take 10-20
years to switch over to this new fuel.

I haven't read the thread thoroughly yet, so you might have a sweet argument or your argument may be "we need to be slightly more careful". Either way, I doubt it will be enough for me to stop being wildly upset over this whole catastrophe and in need of some action to be taken that limits what oil barons are allowed to do.

I agree that action needs to be taken, but sensible action. Action that fixes the problems we're facing and just doesn't create more problems through unintended consequences.

While I understand you are emotional, emotion is not a basis for reform, and it is the opposite of reason.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Opposed to the oil spill itself, which only hurts good and innocent animals and devastates ecosystems and plant life.

But you know, people will get to keep their jobs - so all is well.
Gotta keep the economy strong etc.

So putting people out of working and needlessly shutting down drilling will magically fix the spill?

It's not about the likelihood that it will happen again, it's the fact it has already happened. Even if t doesn't happen for another 40 years, that's still bad. The point isn't to space out man-made disasters, it's not to have them in the first place. If your pinto blows up and kills you, that sucks - But if your pinto blew up and took 20 city blocks with it [Or ruined the environment to the point everything near the car dies], I'm sure there would be a recall on pintos. This oil spill isn't exploding one person. It's ruining a lot more than that.

But explain to me why this moratorium is wrong, aside from 'People will lose jobs'. There are more important things in this world than a handful of people [in the scheme of things] and their having or not having jobs. The well-being of the environment, for one. I can understand people don't want to lose their job, ever. But if they work it into a way where once there are good safety regulations in place so that this type of thing doesn't happen again - they should get precedence for their jobs back if they want them.

But I mean hey, if 17% of the Louisiana population [who are employed by oil-related work] would rather not look for a new job, and continue to contribute to the growing devastation to their local area; nobody can convince them otherwise.

You want to see devastation? Put 17% of the local population out of work. That would do FAR more long term damage than this spill ever could. Want proof? Travel to Detroit sometime...

Again, explain to me why the moratorium will keep a spill from happening again. No one seems to be able to answer this question. The moratorium will be lifted even if reinstated and we will drill because we have no real alternatives and it will eventually happen again. I don't need to explain why it's wrong, you need to explain why it's RIGHT.

In the mean time, all we did was hurt a lot of good people. But at least the moratorium made us feel better for a while, right? Or more accurately, it makes Pres. Obama look like he's doing something about the spill.

[Professor S]

Well we have our answer as to whether or not it is within the power of the executive branch to mandate a moratorium on oil exploration

New Orleans, Louisiana (CNN) -- A federal appeals panel on Thursday upheld a district judge's order to block the Obama administration's six-month ban on deepwater drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.

In a brief ruling just a few hours after the hearing, the three-judge appellate panel denied the government's request to reinstate the moratorium while the full appeal of the case continues.

Last month, U.S. District Judge Martin Feldman issued a preliminary injunction against the ban, which halted all drilling in more than 500 feet of water and prevented new permits from being issued. The government appealed the ruling and asked for an emergency stay of Feldman's decision while the case continued.

On Thursday, the appellate panel of the 5th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals rejected the government's request, saying it had "failed to demonstrate a likelihood of irreparable injury if the stay is not granted."

Apparently the government is unfazed and I believe Salazar stated they would just issue an additional moratorium rather than attempt to reinstate the existing one (that will then be overturned in all likelihood).

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/08/oil...ex.html?hpt=T2

[Angrist]

So... now in normal English. Can they drill or not?

[Professor S]

Yes, they can drill... kind of. The administration can still block drilling, but I believe they have to address it on a case by case basis and not as a general moratorium.

[Angrist]

Ok thanks. Sounds reasonable.

[Professor S]

Well, actually they called another moratorium (a third one) and are planning to fight to keep this one in place as well. It appears they will call for a new moratorium every time a court overturns the previous one.

Ahhhh... abuse of power never felt so righteous... and I guess that makes it ok.

[Angrist]

Looks like the leaking stopped?

[Seth]

There's more than one 'leak' Angrist. So they've contained the one that's been made available to the media outlets. The other, much more worrying leaks are far from being contained.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20206

[Professor S]

Seth, the other one is available to media outlets as well. I've seen plenty of news about it. They actually think that one is from another capped well, which is worrisome.