Occupy Wallstreet

[Dylflon]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I'm not sure my contribution will meet your guidelines, but I think the issue at hand is as much a philosophical problem as a policy problem. We lay our futures at the feet of others expecting all our problems to be swept away in a cleansing wave of altruism. In reality, we have provided those that would rig the system for their own interests with the means to do so.

The greatest myth we need to overcome is the myth that our collective future is somehow controllable by a select few elected officials. The greatest and most productive social and economic systems known to man simply come into existence without some grand plan. See: Spontaneous Orders



Now even though this is a free-market principle, and I am not a 100% free marketer, but I think can see what happens when we layer thousands of pages of tax law and regulations (or unequal deregulation*) on top of the marketplace: Rampant corruption (government and industry) and a severely uneven playing field.

Currently taxes and regulations are constructed in a way that prevents new personal wealth (progressive taxes, estate taxes, etc.), upward mobility, and consolidates power.

But the great lie is that we can somehow wave a magic wand of regulations and new taxes to fix our problems. These ideas are how we GOT HERE. If bashing your skull with a hammer is giving you a headache, you can fix it by hitting yourself HARDER.

At first I thought our main problem was arrogance, but looking harder I think our main problem is a feeling of impotence and lack of self-esteem; that we can't possibly control our own lives and culture. We are too stupid and weak. That we need to select others to control these processes for us. Meanwhile, these select few only beat us down more, and we seem to respond "thank you sir... may I have another?"

What we complain about in society are the spontaneous orders that have grown BECAUSE to our rejection of personal responsibility and collective self-loathing. There is no grand conspiracy; no shadow government or unknowable force or evil political party oppressing us. We have gotten exactly what we asked for.

How to fix it? Until we start asking for responsibility, instead of giving it away, I don't imagine anything will change (we'll still have good economies and bad economies, but the imbalance will remain).


*Many blame the current economic crisis on a lack of regulation over the mortgage and financial industry, but the truth is this industry was a remains one of the most highly regulated in the country. What no one asks is WHAT sectors were over-regulated, what sectors were deregulated, and what sectors WEREN'T REGULATED AT ALL. Example: Many hedge funds were allowed to run without any government oversight at all during the 90's and much of the 00's (maybe still today). They brought in record profits, and record investment. This is an uneven playing field and an unnatural imbalance consolidating massive amounts of investment $. IMO, unnatural economic systems are deadly whether through selective regulation, or selective deregulation.

Great post, strongly agree.

[Seth]

Great way to eat dinner if you have someone to watch it with. 1:53:00 length.

Lifting the Veil from S DN on Vimeo.

About NDAA Section 1031. Remove wording that protects civil rights and then object to the lack of this protective language.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Seth

Explains why Obama is opposed to the bill.
I can't believe people can imitate the message that we are somehow in a moral position to get rid of tyrancy in middle eastern countries.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28055


Also, hopefully Ron Paul will win so that either a) he absolves the Federal Reserve, private printing of debt-attached currency in America, or b) he will be put on a 'hit' and his martyrdom will inspire the millions needed to incite change.
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1459/...Candidate.html

It wasn't until 1933 that 'feder reserve' became printed on currency.

If you haven't heard already, Obama flopped on his veto warnings now supports the bill. The mainstream media should have been in an outrage about this, but they weren't.. goes back to the point about the system being broken.

If this next election is Obama vs Romney... this is just sad. I'm not sure what Obama can even say next time he runs, he's already proven himself to be a liar and absolute failure. And Mick Romney is a proud corperatist (Obama's the closet one). Don't get me wrong, there's differences between Obama and Romney, but what they have in common is all bad for the country.

I'm in Ron Paul's camp, even though I don't agree with him as much as I did with candidate Obama in 2008. President Obama lost his right to a second term in my book.

[Professor S]

Just watched a video and thought it supported many of y feelings expressed in this thread:



Edit: This one is even better...

[TheGame]

Good points in those videos. But Occupy wallstreet isn't a blanket call for regulation or deregulation, so I don't know what relevance this has with the thread. The real issue is that the government's incentive structure is set to bend to the will of giant corperations. So the second video is more on topic in that sense.

I guarantee if any type of deregulation happens it will also feed the large corperations and hurt competition and the quality/price of products too... because that's just how things are run here now. It's very rare that the government passes something that the big banks or giant corperations don't like and that's for the good of the consumers.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

I guarantee if any type of deregulation happens it will also feed the large corperations and hurt competition and the quality/price of products too...

That depends on how you go about it, but overall I'd say history doesn't agree with your perspective (but please cite examples if I am incorrect). There are many very public cases where deregulation has led to more choice, lower prices, etc.

Examples:

1) Air travel - The "jet set" used to be a very real thing. Only the very wealthy could afford it. Also, companies like PanAm famously captured the regulatory marketplace and basically owned politicians. When air travel was deregulated in the late 70's more airlines came about, with more routes, and drastically reduced prices. All of this led to more choice for many more people. Air travel is now common for the middle class.

2) Telecommunications - "Ma Bell" was a very real thing as well. Local service was separate from long distance and you could only purchase a phone from the phone company. Not surprisingly, long distance was incredibly expensive (I remember when you had to pay per minute to call another state or even zip code) and the phones didn't advance in technology for 30 years. Once deregulation took place we went from a 30 pound tethered phones to mini-supercomputers in out pockets and calling long distance doesn't make us think twice.

The reason why deregulation, when handled with a cudgel and not an exacto-knife, tends to work is that it separates the corporation from the government. Once separated, the corporation can no longer influence the government because the levers to do so no longer exist. It's like trying to drive a car with no gas. Now the corporation is beholden to the consumer, and the products and prices it creates, and they no longer have the luxury of a government that can force business their way. As bad as the worst corporation is, they still cannot FORCE you to buy anything unless the government makes you.* They actually have to engage in CAPITALISM. Shudder the thought...

But I agree, we have to be vigilant in how "deregulation" happens. As pointed out in those videos, selective deregulation is as counterproductive and over-regulation.

And yes, if you were wondering I am not longer ignoring you (on a trial basis)

*Example: The new healthcare law mandates or in much more impactful cases, intense EPA and OSHA over-regulation. Once of the biggest reasons why new housing in being pushed to either McMansions or large apartment complexes are the sheer number of mandated "safety" features that new construction builders must contend with. It simply is not profitable to build medium sized single famiy homes anymore. To make money, you have to "go big or go home". Meanwhile, these new homes have an average lifespan of about 30 years, if that, while my "dangerous" home built before regulations has been upright for almost 100 years and my parents' home is almost 140 years old.

[TheGame]

Yup, we have to be clear about what deregulation is being pursued. It's a two way street. They clearly point out in the videos that corperations have a hand in their own regulations, but the fact remains that they have a hand in their own deregulations (not that any have been done on the federal level any time recently that I can think of).

The point of the occupy wallstreet movement is to draw attention to that hand getting stronger and the economy/people suffering as a result of it.

[Teuthida]

Alan Moore walks about occupy protestors.

[Seth]

On regulation cronyism:

http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=78...5B26FBB54FE025

This is the problem with America. The Queen mother insures that her nephews had raw milk delivered directly to them when they were studying at Oxford. The royal family is a huge supporter of holistic alternative medicine and agricultural reform that is directly counter to the American model of excessive production with the expense of soil erosion, depletion, and water contamination. Not to mention the health consequences that exponentially greater in children.

The 25 minute mark of the video shows an incident where a police officer illegally detains a woman who was videotaping a traffic stop, from the front yard of her property. Getting charged with "obstructing government" is indicative of a huge shift in law enforcement training. Basically, we're screwed when it comes to civilian's accountability measures, which include observing and recording police actions within safe parameters.

This is important because, while I don't think it's very good to dwell or obsess over police abuses of power, there are so many video recorded incidents that showcase a complete shift in law enforcement ideology. In Canada, mounties used to operate differently. We have a huge drug scene problem on the west coast, and it requires a unique approach to law enforcement. However, in regulation the civilian population is being persecuted in its ability to maintain freedoms and ensure our safety and proper discourse in matters of police policies and the protection of our rights.

[TheGame]

Seth that video says a lot.

Eventually the government will be able to throw anyone in jail at will for any reason. Heck the NDAA basically allows that now. The whole internet crap (SOPA/PIPA) just gives them more things they can arrest you for.