Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us

[Bond]

I am currently enrolled in a seminar class this semester that meets every Wednesday night for two and a half hours. The class is called "Diversity Dialogues." As juniors, we take the class during our spring semester, and teach (more so facilitate) the class to freshman during the fall semester of our senior year. It's a very small class (thirteen students, probably in part because it is limited to honors students), which is a rarity for a university as large as ours. The discussions are often very lively, and the two professors that run the course are not afraid to debate along with us. The class has a decidedly left-of-center tilt, but I have enjoyed this as it has challenged the views I brought into the class, and certainly widened my perspective on the issues of diversity and privilege that impact our country.

A major issue that I raised during our last discussion that we were not able to resolve was the title of this thread: how do we reconcile the American Dream with the least among us? Allow me to explain what I mean.

The American Dream is at the core of our shared experience as Americans. Whether you view it as an unattainable myth or some thing that can be achieved seems inconsequential to me, as it runs so deep through our culture - it is our culture. The American Dream was first formally expressed (minus the Declaration of Independence, which may be debatable) by James Truslow Adams in 1931, in which he said that any citizen can achieve a "better, richer, and happier life." It seems to me as though, within this definition of the American Dream, comes the baggage that some citizens will succeed, while others will fail. In fact, our "capitalist" economy is built on a series of winners and losers that writes a history in which only the winners are remembered. While I do think this has led to great prosperity, and probably more successes than failures, it is not without its costs, which leads me to the least among us.

It seems as though our ability to achieve the American Dream is predetermined by our rank of privilege within our society. Let me give you a personal example. I am currently studying for the LSAT, with aspirations to attend law school after my undergraduate studies are completed, and hopefully lead a successful legal career when all is said and done. Within this dream is the distinct possibility that I will fail. Perhaps I flunk the LSAT, my grades begin to decline, and I become a drunkard. All of this is within the realm of possibility. What happens to me? Well, I go back to live with my parents, of course.

Doing so would place little-to-no financial burden upon them, and I am confident that they would welcome me back with open arms. It is this confidence and privilege that gives me the ability to take the risk to pursue my dreams that I am taking. But, this is only because I am above the threshold that dictates whether or not I can take these sorts of risks.

I believe this threshold boils down to the question: if someone fails at his or her dream, is there a place they can unconditionally turn (whether it be family or close friends) that will take them back, and also not incur excessive financial hardship due to their arrival?

The least among us, largely due to predetermined financial situations that most have little to no control over, do not have this luxury or privilege. They cannot take these risks as readily as we can. They do not have the safety net of the aforementioned threshold.

So, in sum, my question is this: how can we reconcile the American Dream with the least among us? Is it even possible? Should we even care to?

[KillerGremlin]

Reconcile? Har har har...

Originally Posted by Bond

It seems as though our ability to achieve the American Dream is predetermined by our rank of privilege within our society.

I don't think it seems is leading strong enough. Considering America was built on the exploits of Native Americans and settled by wealthy, privileged upper-class Europeans, I'd say our country wrote the textbook on exploits and privilege. Look at our current rising prison population or the global labor force or distribution of wealth for examples of privilege.

I have several thoughts but my radical thought is that the American dream is a myth on two parts: the first being that this country has been living well beyond its means and at the exploits of the rest of the world (but then, is this just healthy competition and are we forever bound to live in a dog eat dog world?), and two being that many people within this country are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to privilege.

/radical opinion

[Professor S]

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

Also, we have to define what the American Dream really is. After all, I'm sure many people who say they'll never "make it" likely have an iPhone in their pocket and a car. For previous generations a modest house and a car in every garage was the dream. Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV.

There are just too many examples of people making the American Dream, whatever that may be, come true for it to be myth. Our ducation levels have never been higher (can be accredited to the GI Bill and government grants/loans) and wealth, even with the recession, has skyrocketed over time for every income level. Now is the American Dream more difficult for the poor (I refuse to call them the "least of us", that is insulting)? Undoubtedly, but no one said that everyone is the same, only that we have the equal opportunity under the law, not under the fairness. We would all love for everyone in the world to have the same starting point in life, but that will never happen whether by chance (status/wealth at birth) or by act of God (intelligence and health level).

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

Me? I tend to agree with Michael Corleone from The Godfather... "Contempt for wealth is a trick played by the rich on the poor to ensure they never have it." The more the poor are convinced they'll never have anything, the less people the rich have to worry about competing with them. Even look at our tax structure. As we have gone forward to make the ideal of "fairness" a law and created taxes that punish and redistribute rather than encourage new wealth, it has made the American Dream harder and harder to attain. Now if you HAVE money and can hire tax, financial and legal counsel you can avoid paying most of the punitive taxes... but hey, thats for THEM not for YOU. It takes money to keep money in our current government.

If everyone would stop pining over everyone else, and start pining over their own condition, I think the world would be in a much better state and we wouldn't have a generation growing up thinking they have no hope unless the government spoon-feeds it to them atop an infant's high chair.

[Teuthida]

EDIT: Prof nailed it with "equal opportunity under the law."

I always considered the American Dream to be that an individual can achieve their goals through hard work no matter their background. If you want something bad enough, and study/practice/do whatever it takes, you can make it. Now, how long this take is another matter. For a poor older immigrant it might be very hard, but their offspring would have just as much chance as anyone else. Just need the drive.

Like your example Bond, I'm sure there are plenty of folks in your situation without the cushy fallback. They'll make sure their grades don't decline or become a drunkard as you say. They can't afford to not succeed. Chances are they have a job paying their way through college and law school.

[TheSlyMoogle]

I'm not getting into this too much, as Bond and I have already talked about it to an extent, but the American Dream is bullshit. Plain and simple.

If you honestly believe the majority of rich people are rich because they were dedicated and hard working, that's bullshit too. Most of the rich people you know and hear about go from rags to riches sure, but the majority of them don't. Those who get rich stay that way, as well as their descendants.

And while we're here look up class mobility in the united states. Which by the way has been on a steady decline since 1970, and only managed to stabilize, yet not increase in the last decade.

Rising cost of tuition, and absolute dependency on a college degree have really fucked things up when it comes to the american dream.

Generation after Generation we vote those into power over our laws and government who are the people of the upper class, and they make the decisions for us. No one else sees a problem in that? Probably not.

This shit wont change until people wake the fuck up and realize what's actually important at the end of the day.

Unfortunately the nation isn't moving towards anything that resembles the Star Trek universe and it probably never will, so hey whatever. I fully look for someone to blow the USA up in the next 50-100 years anyway.

I know Prof is going to have something to say about this, and I'm going to go ahead an throw out that we clearly had vastly different sociology professors.

[Acebot44]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Like your example Bond, I'm sure there are plenty of folks in your situation without the cushy fallback. They'll make sure their grades don't decline or become a drunkard as you say. They can't afford to not succeed. Chances are they have a job paying their way through college and law school.

Bingo. That's me.

It's funny. In Bond's initial post, he mentioned the structure of the intimate course in diversity he's been participating in and facilitating, and the parallels between the two of us grew another notch. I've been a facilitator in a strikingly similar course for the past two years here at my University. I will be studying for the LSAT as well next quarter with aspirations of attending law school after undergrad.

But my intention for going is quite different. Failure is NOT an option and as Teuth said, I "can't afford to not succeed." I am currently attending university for a pittance of the actual cost because I receive FULL financial aid, primarily as a result of my parents eensy-weensy annual income. Oh, and we're also immigrants, not yet citizens either. Pursing my dream of becoming a lawyer is nowhere near a "risk," in fact, its the only rational route I can take to possibly provide a cushy life for my parents. That is my main goal and having nothing to fall back on serves as the most effective source inspiration and motivation I could ask for.

I don't understand how going to college, working your butt off, going to law school, and working at a firm is a risky venture. In this sense of the American Dream, which I wholly equate with the ideal of Meritocracy, my own determination and perseverance has led me to the highly competitive position I am currently in. Looking white has helped a bunch too.

For being inspired to post this thread as a result of participating in a class titled "Diversity Dialogues," I'm surprised by the lack reference to race thus far.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Acebot44

For being inspired to post this thread as a result of participating in a class titled "Diversity Dialogues," I'm surprised by the lack reference to race thus far.

But we have moved beyond racism, you silly goose.

Edit: I'm deeply saddened by BaB's lack of contribution to this discussion given where he grew up and his current job. Perhaps if Bond changed the title of the thread to "Reconciling the American Nintendo with the Least Wii"....

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

I know Prof is going to have something to say about this, and I'm going to go ahead an throw out that we clearly had vastly different sociology professors.

Actually my Sociological Foundations of Education teacher was a open communist. He even included communism as part of his curriculum. And yes, he HATED me because I dared to challenge him. My only A- of my entire grad school experience and I only did that well because I just started to repeat his lectures back to him in my papers. Head of the department and a complete pompous ignoramous.

As for you argument, I empathize with much of it, especially the reality that the world is unfair has gotten exceedingly less fair as we've meddled with social experimentation. I am a firm believer that most of our tax code does more to maintain the status quo than help overturn it.

These failures do not erase the successes, though, and does not remove the fact that America is possibly the greatest example of a government philosophy allowing the poor/lower classes to gain wealth and success and climb up the rungs of society. Hell, my father was one of 9 children and they grew up with a communal sink and an outhouse. He and my mom currently lives in a Victorian he restored over 30 years that is now worth over $1 million. No one gave it to him. He made it happen, and there were plenty of tough times along the way. I call 1991 recession the Tuna Casserole Year...

It wasn't that long ago that the poor in the civilized world could never achieve simply because of their birth right or because they languished under a totalitarian regime. Hell, the aristocracy is still a real social structure in Britain. I could feel it in the mere two weeks I was in Scotland and Ireland (moreso Scotland). America is still one of the few places on earth where someone can achieve fame and fortune through their own merit and hard work. Just ask Oprah. But as with anything, there are no guarantees. If anyone wants guarantees they can get a welfare check at the first of every month.

But if you want to believe the American Dream is a myth, please go right ahead. I will gladly help myself to your piece of the pie.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

I would agree with you here in that the percentage of the "wealthy" that are generational is much lower than the self made, but I suppose this might depend as to how precisely we define the term wealthy. I would say, however, that in some ways we have developed our own form of an aristocracy, but to a lesser degree than European nations. We have our Rockefellers and our Vanderbilts, although they are few. I view them more so as a natural by-product of wealth creation than anything else.

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

My first response would be to not let the myth of the perfect blind anyone from seeing the good.

If the TRUE determiner of one's class are their parents 1) Black people would still be slaves (thats why equality under the law is so important) and 2) I would be a a member of the working poor right now. In my mind the real reason is that we've had a government has been telling people since the 1930's that they can't do it, and has taken steps to ensure that they can't in a misguided attempt to help.

I could cite examples from today's predominantly black inner city ghettos and disproportionate occurrences of single parent households being a result of 1920's - 1940's government policies rather than individual efforts all the way to the counter-productive tax system I described earlier to draconian eminent domain laws. If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference. In such an environment discouragement would be the norm, not the exception.

Still, even with all of this interference and borderline abuse, America is still the first and best example of people being able to come from nothing and make a successful life on their own terms, whatever that may be. Also, immigrants still flock to out shores. Hell, we're building a damn wall to keep them out because they are fleeing a REAL aristocracy in Mexico, where if you were born with native blood you are essentially &%$@ed at birth.

To me its all about perspective.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

[TheGame]

Can someone elaorate on what Prof is talking about when he says "If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference."

What interference exists now that didn't exist 60-70years ago? And what is taken now that wasn't taken then?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

By that logic you can say anything stinks. Its pure opinion with no qualification or comparison and while I disagree completely there is no point in challenging such a statement.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

I can't say I've ever had to make the decision you've described, but I can say my family wasn't far from it at one point. What we didn't do was cry "woe is me" or blame a system for the problem. The only person responsible for an individual and their family is the individual, regardless of what politicians say or laws they pass. In the end it's up to you. Anything else is fantasy.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

And what a wonderful world that would be... I 'm having a hard time relating to you on this topic. Your statements reflect the thought process of an extraordinarily negative person. I recommend reading the Tao te Ching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

I don't believe America is perfect in realizing its ideals, but perfection is a myth and chasing it is a dangerous fools game. It can get better, of course, but I've seen too much success in my life to believe the myth that it is a myth. For example, I work with Realtors, and most of them came from very humble beginnings and most either do not have college degrees or they got them later in life once they made their money. What they did have was the time and effort to get their license and master their craft and make their own best life. Does that mean every Realtor shares the same success? Absolutely not. WE are not all equal, we are only guaranteed that shot, not the results. Freedom to succeed also comes with the freedom to fail. I would hate to live in a world where no one ever failed. How boring and pointless would that be?

Buit again, if someone wants to believe they or others are trapped by some mysterious shadow web of wealth and power, they can go right ahead. They're one less person I have to compete with.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by Professor S

By that logic you can say anything stinks. Its pure opinion with no qualification or comparison and while I disagree completely there is no point in challenging such a statement.

What? That's bogus. Just because something has technically worked for the last few centuries doesn't mean it will continue to work, or that it actually works that well. If we tried every governmental system in existence for a period of time, and then our system worked the best, then yeah, that would be true. Just because we've lasted so long, doesn't mean it really is working to benefit anyone. That's like saying there are no need for new cars because the ones we have work well.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I can't say I've ever had to make the decision you've described, but I can say my family wasn't far from it at one point. What we didn't do was cry "woe is me" or blame a system for the problem. The only person responsible for an individual and their family is the individual, regardless of what politicians say or laws they pass. In the end it's up to you. Anything else is fantasy.

Neither did I, but that doesn't mean someone is a lesser individual because the did and it's ignorant to think that everyone had the same chances and control their own destiny. That's just an easy way out for you to blame the homeless person when they beg you for your change. Sure some of us make really bad decisions through life, but it's not the majority, and sometimes it's not a decision, it's just the way things have to be.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And what a wonderful world that would be... I 'm having a hard time relating to you on this topic. Your statements reflect the thought process of an extraordinarily negative person. I recommend reading the Tao te Ching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

That was a joke. Was hoping the "haha" in front would imply.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I don't believe America is perfect in realizing its ideals, but perfection is a myth and chasing it is a dangerous fools game. It can get better, of course, but I've seen too much success in my life to believe the myth that it is a myth. For example, I work with Realtors, and most of them came from very humble beginnings and most either do not have college degrees or they got them later in life once they made their money. What they did have was the time and effort to get their license and master their craft and make their own best life. Does that mean every Realtor shares the same success? Absolutely not. WE are not all equal, we are only guaranteed that shot, not the results. Freedom to succeed also comes with the freedom to fail. I would hate to live in a world where no one ever failed. How boring and pointless would that be?

You're right, it could get much better. It's also foolish to think that every problem with this country can be solved through hard work. If that was true then none of us would ever need to go to school to practice the things we enjoy. I mean look at me, I probably understand coding better than a lot of the people who are in the coding industry, but do I have a job? No because I can't afford a piece of paper. Amazing.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Buit again, if someone wants to believe they or others are trapped by some mysterious shadow web of wealth and power, they can go right ahead. They're one less person I have to compete with.

I see in this attitude more negativity than anything I've ever said. Protect what you have. That's the American Sentiment. Don't help others, strive to get as many materialistic things as possible, and strive to be better than everyone else. That's the goal.

Sometimes people fall down, and all they need is someone to pick them back up and help them walk again. The American Dream doesn't do that though, it walks over to them, pulls down it's large pair of pants, takes a huge shit, and uses a few Franklins to wipe, then burns them all while laughing.

Fuck the American dream.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

What? That's bogus. Just because something has technically worked for the last few centuries doesn't mean it will continue to work, or that it actually works that well. If we tried every governmental system in existence for a period of time, and then our system worked the best, then yeah, that would be true. Just because we've lasted so long, doesn't mean it really is working to benefit anyone. That's like saying there are no need for new cars because the ones we have work well.

My comment had little to do with anything you just described. I simply don't think that a statement like "the best is not necessarily good" is one that anyone can discuss fairly or intelligently. It's pure opinion.

As for trying to make a governmental system work to right all perceived wrongs, well, that's been tried. An estimated 20 million people were slaughtered in the 20th century because of it. Power doesn't wax or wane, it just changes hands. Its much safer to have that power reasonably distributed among the multitudes than centralized in the few. The government is the few and always will be. Centralized power will always oppress. It is in it's nature.

Neither did I, but that doesn't mean someone is a lesser individual because the did and it's ignorant to think that everyone had the same chances and control their own destiny.

I never said anyone had the same opportunity, but I do contend everyone has the same control over their fate. No one is a puppet. No one, unless they choose to be.

That's just an easy way out for you to blame the homeless person when they beg you for your change. Sure some of us make really bad decisions through life, but it's not the majority, and sometimes it's not a decision, it's just the way things have to be.

Actually the majority have alcohol/drug problems and many have severe mental illness. There are very few American homeless that are of sound mind. Personally, I think this is an area that we could do much more with. One of my greatest complaints of the Reagan era was the removal of funds from mental asylums. I think there should be more sanitary and effective asylums in America to house, treat and train the homeless to make them more capable or at least keep the mentally ill of the street and safe.

As I said, America is not perfect. There is work to be done, but I also do not allow a few hundred thousand (some estimates as low as 150,000) homeless cancel out millions of success stories.

That was a joke. Was hoping the "haha" in front would imply.

You have to admit joke or no that statement holds some truth behind it (in your opinion). I chose to address the truth and not the joke. In any case, I still recommend the Tao. It changed my life and made me realize that I am not always in control and I cannot control others, and to allow myself to let go for my own benefit.

You're right, it could get much better. It's also foolish to think that every problem with this country can be solved through hard work.

Not all but most. Will you always succeed through hard work? No, but I dare say your odds increase drastically.

Truthfully, most people don't give up on the American Dream because they see "the writing on the wall". They give up because they're afraid that if they try they could fail, and they don't want to face that possibility. To me, failure is a blessing and a teachable moment. Edison said it best: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

If that was true then none of us would ever need to go to school to practice the things we enjoy. I mean look at me, I probably understand coding better than a lot of the people who are in the coding industry, but do I have a job? No because I can't afford a piece of paper. Amazing.

Life is about trial and error. I went back to school to become a teacher, but the bureaucracy was so intense that they told me I would have to go back and retake my entire undergraduate degree. I could not afford that and honestly thought it was ridiculous. I analyzed the problem, realized I was not in control of this outcome, and made a decision to change direction and find a new outcome.

Instead of getting my teaching degree, I decided to spend my loan/grant money on a TLT (teaching and learning with technology) certification instead and go after a career in corporate eduction. Now I run a small team of professional trainers and serve 30,000 Realtor members.

Was this the goal I started out with? No. Am I happy with my choices? Absolutely. And my success came to me after YEARS of hard work and suffer for 4 years in the worst job known to mankind. All of that led me to the place where I am now and I know only better things await me in the future because with each step back I will learn and then take 3 steps forward.

I see in this attitude more negativity than anything I've ever said. Protect what you have. That's the American Sentiment. Don't help others, strive to get as many materialistic things as possible, and strive to be better than everyone else. That's the goal.

You misunderstand me. I was trying to make a point. If I didn't want to help you I wouldn't have written everything I just did. The fact is until you see any possibility that you are in control of your own destiny (but not your starting point), no amount of help will assist you. You have the mentality of failure. No one can save you but yourself, and you will not make positive decision until you have a positive attitude.

Take your lack of a "piece of paper" for example. If you really wanted one you would have it. There has never been more assistance for education then now, and rates on loans are incredibly low and they defer payment until after you graduate. Judging by your attitude in this thread I would guess that you haven't gotten the funding because you don't think anything would matter anyway. You have convinced yourself you are fucked from birth, so therefore, why try? Its much easier to give up and blame the universe for our failings or some wealthy person who doesn't even know you much less work against you.

Sometimes people fall down, and all they need is someone to pick them back up and help them walk again. The American Dream doesn't do that though, it walks over to them, pulls down it's large pair of pants, takes a huge shit, and uses a few Franklins to wipe, then burns them all while laughing.

Fuck the American dream.

How has this attitude made your life better? Does your cynicism armor you against all the bad things in life, or continue them?

There is nothing anyone could do to help you if you keep this attitude. We could redistribute every cent in the world and you would still fail simply because you refuse to take any responsibility for your own condition. I don't say this out of malice, but because I like you and want to see you succeed, but if all you do is wait for someone or some government to save you... you'll be waiting a very long time...

You need to stop thinking about how unfair it all is. Recognize your situation. Analyze your options, and there are ALWAYS options, make a decision and MOVE.

"People create their own questions because they are afraid to look straight. All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk. " Ayn Rand

Also, my positivity doesn't completely come naturally. Very few people know this but in my early 20's I considered committing suicide. That's how alone and sad I was. That said, I made the decision that the status quo couldn't stand. I had to make a change. To this day I work at my success and happiness as much as I work at my job and my marriage.