Conundrums

[The Germanator]

Originally Posted by Blackmane

Philosophy is interesting because no matter how hard you think, you can never come to a true, unquestionable answer.

That's actually why I cannot find philosophy interesting at all...I find it hard to argue or think of something for that long when I can't figure out an answer and will not be able to...I find psychology much more interesting because it is a pretty new science, but there are some certainties and some not, but at least it's not just question after question after question...

To each his own though. I understand why philosophy is interesting, but I say to it, why waste your time?

[Neo]

Originally Posted by The Germanator

That's actually why I cannot find philosophy interesting at all...I find it hard to argue or think of something for that long when I can't figure out an answer and will not be able to...I find psychology much more interesting because it is a pretty new science, but there are some certainties and some not, but at least it's not just question after question after question...

To each his own though. I understand why philosophy is interesting, but I say to it, why waste your time?

I believe you can arrive at some answers if you bring physics into the mix. But the point of philosophy is to stretch your mind and get you to examine why you believe the things that you do.

Whether or not psychology is a true science is debatable. Some colleges have psychology under liberal arts instead of natural science. But there are no absolute certainties in any field. We may be 99.9% sure about something but the true scientist always leaves room for question.

[Typhoid]

Yeah, if you notice, when religious arguments come up, and someone said "Who created God? How did God come to be?" Their answer is almost always soemthing about nothing, because he is God. He is all knowing.

But I love those. They rocked my socks.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Neo

I believe you can arrive at some answers if you bring physics into the mix. But the point of philosophy is to stretch your mind and get you to examine why you believe the things that you do.

Whether or not psychology is a true science is debatable. Some colleges have psychology under liberal arts instead of natural science. But there are no absolute certainties in any field. We may be 99.9% sure about something but the true scientist always leaves room for question.

*strokes chin*

Too true.

Are there any 100% true facts, or just 99.9% true theories?

My language arts class recently took a look at a quote taken from Antigone, written by Sophocles. The quote reads: "A good man tries to repair the evil, the only crime is pride". We had to write an essay exploring the truthfulness of that quote.

I actually disagreed with Sophocles. Pride is NOT the only crime. Most people, when reading the words of an ancient philosopher, or anyone ancient actually, seem to believe them immediatly. Ancient or not, he was just a man, and him being a memory now doesnt change anything. The only way it would be true would be if he said "pride is a crime."

Pride is humanity’s ultimate double edged sword. Where would we be without pride? We take pride in ourselves, pride in our brethren, and pride in our homelands. It gives us the strength to stand up for what we believe in, and what makes us get up again if we’ve been kicked down. You can take everything away from a man: his freedom, his family, and his possessions…but you cannot take his pride. On the other hand, pride is probably the root of most every great problem in the world. It’s when we have so much pride that we remain ignorant that it actually becomes a deadly sin. Someone who will not admit their pretense when they are blatantly proven wrong is indeed guilty of a crime. As humans we are imperfect by nature, and we all support some sort of flaw. It is the pride in our opinions that make us unique and give us a reason to live; it is the pride in incorrect facts that should be punishable. We should take pride in ourselves, in all of our glorious imperfection, not in our abilities.

However, the wise Teiresias seems to have made a slight miscalculation in his well thought out prose. He did not state that pride was a crime; he stated that it was the only crime. Teiresias states that a good man will repair the evil once he realizes his course is wrong, but what if his evil course is not repairable? What if a person commits a murder in a blind act of passion? If later the person admits he was wrong and cleanses himself of his pride, does this make him a good man? No matter how much we shun our pride, we cannot give life to the dead.

Aside from this, another standpoint can be taken. What if a person is killed in an act of war or is given the death penalty. Does the man responsible for the loss of the life feel that he has committed a crime? And to make the moral and ethical paradox even worse, it was pride that drove the man to commit the murder. If the life was taken in a war, it was pride in one’s nation that drove the man to kill. If the life was taken in an electric chair, it was pride in one’s opinion that corporeal punishment is true justice that drove him to kill.

“Romeo and Juliet”, an Elizabethan play by William Shakespeare is a perfect example of how pride actually resulted in death, yet it also shows us that pride cannot be the only crime. In the play two noble families, the Capulets and the Montagues, are at a constant feud with each other. Their hatred of each other and their passionate pride are driven so intently that they will not concede to each other to allow two of their children to be married, although they both love each other deeply. In the end, Romeo and Juliet, the two star crossed lovers, kill themselves in a hopeless act of suicidal passion. It was only after this that the two families put away their pride and were united. In the end they recognized that their course was wrong, but even though they discontinued being proud, they could not bring back their dead children. Was pride the only crime in this tragedy? They may have admitted that their course was wrong, but they are still guilty of condoning the hatred and not letting their children be happy.

And what can be said of Juliet? Suicide is considered a sin by nearly everyone, and wrong by everyone. How does one propose Juliet repair her evil?

There are many implications within Teiresias’s philosophy. If a person is too stubborn to admit they are wrong when proven so, then they are guilty of a crime of pride, but if they will not admit they are wrong about a belief or opinion that someone else believes is “evil”, than they are guilty of nothing but having a strong morale code. Teiresias’s quote may sound wise and truthful at first glance, but it has far too many exceptions and contradictions to be accepted as a philosophy to live by. Pride to too important to the existence of humans to call it a crime.

[Swan]

Very interesting. Those remind me of something I heard in a George Carlin bit awhile back.
It went something like...
"Why do people pray when the same people say that god has a divine plan? If god really does have a divine plan, and you pray for something that wasn't a part of the plan, do you expect him to change his plan?"

That really made me think. Good job Neo.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by deejzguy

Very interesting. Those remind me of something I heard in a George Carlin bit awhile back.
It went something like...
"Why do people pray when the same people say that god has a divine plan? If god really does have a divine plan, and you pray for something that wasn't a part of the plan, do you expect him to change his plan?"

Yeah it's like when people mention "God's will" I really don't think they understand what that means. Most of the problems in discussing God stem from the limitations of language. For example we say things like God wants this, or thinks this, or feels this, but "wanting," "thinking," and "feeling" are all characteristics of an organic human brain. Thoughts are the result of electrical charges interacting in your brain. I don't think that God wants, thinks, or feels anything in the traditional sense of what those words mean. Yet by using that language we end up personifying God and that gets us into all kinds of trouble. Asking what God wants is like asking what do rocks and Wednesdays have in common. The question ultimately just doesn't make sense, even if it's not immediately obvious.


Carlin has a new book out btw.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Neo

Carlin has a new book out btw.

Whats it called? And why havent I heard of it yet?

I have his other two. I need three....to have the perfect Carlin Trifecta.


And im just curious....but in the Bible doesnt it say "Thou shalt not pray to graven images"? Because i remmeber when i was at my friends funeral, most of the images were graven. Lets see, you have the numerous dying or dead jesus pictures on the cross.

Just thought I'd ask.

[Vampyr]

I never new Neo was so wise.

You make me want to go read about quantum physics or something. You know, I'm a junior in high school and I still don't know what "quantum" actually means.

I plan on checking out a couple books when I return to school monday, though. I'd like to get something by Stephen Hawkings if I can find it, and a book on philosophy. I used to be really into philosophy, and I was actually into Zen a while back. It still fascinates me. I think knowledge is one of the traits of humanity that I value above nearly all others, except for Passion. Even Alexander so valued learning that he said he was more indebted to Aristotle for giving him knowledge this his father Philip for giving him life.

Originally Posted by Neo

Speaking of pride I could make the argument that every action we take is inherently selfish in nature. Helping others in need may seem like a selfless act, but we have to remember that we do those things because it makes us feel good. It makes us feel good to know that we have helped someone else. We wouldn't help people if it felt bad or somehow wrong. Even the act of self-sacrifice can be seen as selfishly motivated. Someone who is about to give their life feels good about what they're doing. They take some joy in knowing they will be remembered for having done something "noble." We do the things we do because of what it does to us on the inside. Why help an old lady cross the street? Because you value her life and don't want her to get injured. But why is that? Where does that wanting come from? It comes from a need to satisfy certain emotional desires, to know you are in the right. It's a subtle distinction but I think it's worth looking at.

I was actually thinking of that exact same thing the other day. I dont remember what the context was, or why I was thinking about it, but I remember coming to the conclusion that every single human is selfish in every single act that they perform. Why doesnt a scientist study his field so vigorously? Maybe he just wants to be famous, or perhaps it out of pure irresistable curiosity. But even then there is some part of the mind that wants to be recognized for their work, and if you look at it from a different perspective, is the scientist's curiosity selfish in the fact he wants to take nature's secrets for himself?

It reminds me of a story I read once by Flannery O' Conner, titled "Revelation." It was a short story, and the main character was a robust Christain woman who always tried to act cheerful, she volunteered at the church, he did community service, and when she was done with it all, she thought that was what would get her into Heaven. All of those good deeds were done out of pure selfishness, but she truely thought she was being a good person.

I won't ruin the ending, but she gets a real eye opener.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Are there any 100% true facts, or just 99.9% true theories?

Physics is about model construction. Using mathematics as a tool we construct theories which can explain and predict natural phenomena. "Truth" isn't a word physicists like to use. Einstein's theory of relativity agrees perfectly with every experiment ever devised but the question of whether or not the theory somehow exists as truth in some platonic realm is a matter of philosophy. Also to say a theory is incomplete is not really the same thing as saying it is incorrect. Newton's laws of motion are "correct" for speeds much less than the speed of light but they quickly break down when the velocity approaches that of light. Einstein's models are more complete but the simpler Newtonian laws can still be derived from them. It can be said that all laws are at best approximations for the occurrences in nature. Again whether or not the laws of physics have some reality beyond the conceptual is a matter of speculation. Are there 100% true facts? In an absolute sense no. For example, someone could have slipped LSD into your drink this morning. You would have to step outside your consciousness and observe yourself outside of yourself if that makes any sense.

You can say there are mathematical truths, such as 1+1=2. This results from having a quantity sitting over here, and another quantity sitting over there, and together we designate them as being "two" quantities. This way mathematical truths somehow feel more like conventions than actual truths. Convention isn't really the right word but you get the idea.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Pride is humanity’s ultimate double edged sword. Where would we be without pride? We take pride in ourselves, pride in our brethren, and pride in our homelands. It gives us the strength to stand up for what we believe in, and what makes us get up again if we’ve been kicked down. You can take everything away from a man: his freedom, his family, and his possessions…but you cannot take his pride. On the other hand, pride is probably the root of most every great problem in the world.

Speaking of pride I could make the argument that every action we take is inherently selfish in nature. Helping others in need may seem like a selfless act, but we have to remember that we do those things because it makes us feel good. It makes us feel good to know that we have helped someone else. We wouldn't help people if it felt bad or somehow wrong. Even the act of self-sacrifice can be seen as selfishly motivated. Someone who is about to give their life feels good about what they're doing. They take some joy in knowing they will be remembered for having done something "noble." We do the things we do because of what it does to us on the inside. Why help an old lady cross the street? Because you value her life and don't want her to get injured. But why is that? Where does that wanting come from? It comes from a need to satisfy certain emotional desires, to know you are in the right. It's a subtle distinction but I think it's worth looking at.