End of the world couldn't come soon enough

MuGen · 05-04-2005, 05:18 PM

In actuality, if there WAS a world of peace, they wouldn't know it as a world of peace. The word peace cannot exist without war.

Would people be asking for a world of peace, if there was no war or hate?

Neo · 05-04-2005, 05:44 PM

Good and evil are ultimately just illusions created by the mind.

"There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so." - Hamlet

Neo · 05-04-2005, 05:46 PM

Stuff I posted earlier:

7) Is God all-powerfull and all-good? If he is all-powerful, then he would be able to prevent evil. If he is all-good, then he would want to prevent evil. But are not pain and suffering woven into the very fabric of our life? Why is there pain and suffering?

8) Does God allow evil so we can develop good characteristics? Does he permit pain and suffering so we can become better? Is it owing to poverty that we become charitable, owing to cruelty that we become kind? Does evil build souls? But why are built souls a virtue? Why are the traits of charity and kindness good? Isn't that they help us prevent evil, pain, and suffering? But if there was no evil in the first place, why would we need these traits? Would they still remain virtues?

9) Does God permit evil so we can develop characteristics worthy of entering heaven? But why do we need those characters in heaven? Is there poverty and cruelty in heaven too? If not, why did we suffer to develop these characteristics? What good would they be in heaven?

10) Doesn't evil destroy character more often than building it? Do not abused children themselves abuse children?

11) Must we have pain so we can know joy? Must we suffer in order to know what happiness is?

12) Does pain and suffering come from the misuse of our freedom? If God is all-powerful couldn't he have made us both free and so that we always did good?

13) If a parent gives a child freedom to roam in the street and child gets injured, is it the child or the parent who is guilty?

14) Are we punished for inherited sin? Did Adam and Eve start the whole problem? What would you think of a people that forced its criminals to reproduce so it could then punish their children?

Bond · 05-04-2005, 05:48 PM

Neo, you do realize Christianity has an answer to all those questions, right?

Neo · 05-04-2005, 05:52 PM

None that are logically consistent.

Bond · 05-05-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

Stuff I posted earlier:

7) Is God all-powerfull and all-good? If he is all-powerful, then he would be able to prevent evil. If he is all-good, then he would want to prevent evil. But are not pain and suffering woven into the very fabric of our life? Why is there pain and suffering?

God gave us free will. Having free will and preventing evil cannot logically work together.

Quote:

8) Does God allow evil so we can develop good characteristics? Does he permit pain and suffering so we can become better? Is it owing to poverty that we become charitable, owing to cruelty that we become kind? Does evil build souls? But why are built souls a virtue? Why are the traits of charity and kindness good? Isn't that they help us prevent evil, pain, and suffering? But if there was no evil in the first place, why would we need these traits? Would they still remain virtues?

There is redemptive suffering. Suffering has value. We learn and struggle from suffering. It makes us who we are.

Quote:

10) Doesn't evil destroy character more often than building it? Do not abused children themselves abuse children?

Well, now you're into transcendentalism and anti-transcendentalism.

Quote:

11) Must we have pain so we can know joy? Must we suffer in order to know what happiness is?

Well, yes, that's entirely possible.

Quote:

12) Does pain and suffering come from the misuse of our freedom? If God is all-powerful couldn't he have made us both free and so that we always did good?

No. You can't have free will, but yet be forced to always do the right thing.

Quote:

13) If a parent gives a child freedom to roam in the street and child gets injured, is it the child or the parent who is guilty?

Both. But you can't compare the parent with God and the child with humanity.

Neo · 05-05-2005, 07:43 PM

In a mechanistic universe free will is ultimately an illusion anyway. Not even the randomness of quantum mechanics can change that. But regardless our will is a result of our complex intellegence which in turn is a result of evolution. It was not given to us by an invisible man who lives in the clouds.

I agree pain and suffering do cause us to be stronger as well as provide us with the ability to know and appreciate joy. That just proves that they are dependent on each other and are really two sides to the same coin. We can no more seperate ourselves from evil than we can detach our heads. This is all moot though since good and evil are just mental conceptions that have no independent reality. Good is not some substance floating around in the air, it's just a label we use to classify actions. Things that are considered evil actually seem to be doing some good for us.

dropCGCF · 05-05-2005, 08:25 PM

"God Of Gaps". Look it up.

Canyarion · 05-06-2005, 01:07 PM

1:
That law was made AFTER Abraham lived.
2:
Who says Jakob really saw God?
3: Sure, he could have destroyed all those people through his angels, but he wanted Judah to do it themselves.
4: Can't really find it, but I guess it's another form of tempting. The first one is tempting someone to become evil, which is impossible for Jehovah (even though he may allow a bit, but never more than we can bear). The second one was a test, an opportunity for Abraham to show his faith.

To answer a few, anyway.

Professor S · 05-06-2005, 04:32 PM

Hey look! Another religion thread! Should I join in or go beat myself in the face with a hammer?

...

*The Strangler grabs hammer and walks out to the garage for a good, old fashioned face beating*

GameMaster · 05-04-2005, 05:47 PM

Peace or war,
love or hate,
neither can exist without the other,
equal opposites forced to coexist,
eternal enemies in a unified pond...

Vampyr · 05-04-2005, 06:40 PM

Christianity is built on a foundation of inconsistancies.

Oh the hypocrisy of it all.

Kitana85 · 05-05-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Christianity is built on a foundation of inconsistancies.

And that's why it's called faith... if it was easily (or possibly) rationalised faith would not be needed -- unless you are a follower of Thomas Aquinis in which case it is possible to follow the whole thing with reason... but thats why more poeple tend to follow other Christian thinkers- Aquinian ideas tend not to work.

Canyarion · 05-05-2005, 04:18 AM

I'm with Bond here, religion has answers. I know mine has very good ones, ones that actually make sense when you dig into them deeper.

But discussing religion on the internet is useless, so.....

Vampyr · 05-05-2005, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana85

And that's why it's called faith... if it was easily (or possibly) rationalised faith would not be needed -- unless you are a follower of Thomas Aquinis in which case it is possible to follow the whole thing with reason... but thats why more poeple tend to follow other Christian thinkers- Aquinian ideas tend not to work.

I'm not just saying it's unrational. I mean it is: a big all powerful spirit guy living in the "heavens" who has angels that fly with wings and halo's, and he had a human son who healed the blind and returned from the death, all that is very irrational, but like you said, that's what faith is for.

I'm speaking of the hypocrisy of christianity. It constantly contradicts itself.

[edit] Canyarion, I believe discussing religion on the internet is fun, but arguing about it is useless.

I think that's probably what you meant anyway, but I just wanted to state that because I'm not trying to argue with anyone.