Catholic church says not to take Bible as truth

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

We don't really know that.

And even when taking the Bible in the most unliteral and figurative of terms it is still highly unbelievable.

Believability is relative, and dependent on your level of faith. What you find unbelievable, many feel is completely accurate and obvious. Just because you disblieve doesn't make you right, as well as their belief doesn't make them correct. Its about personal truth.

And Gimpy, the Bible has actually been purposefully changed multiple times over the years, with sections being added and removed over the centuries. The Catholic church has removed and changed a lot of the New and Old Testament, calling those section heretical, which is a contradiction in termsif you think about it.

Example, the Book of Enoch (yes, I've brought it up before) was once a part of the Bible. Check it out, its a fascinating and in depth read describing the events that caused The Biblical Flood. Very "wrathful" depictiuon of God, and it in fact QUOTES God of several occasions.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm

[Neo]

I grew up with people who did take it as the literal truth. They were very frightening.

What this really does is undercut the validity of the quotes the church does choose to regurgitate. They selectively pick which passages they think are true or that have some merit while ignoring all the rest. Admitting that your source material has problems doesn't serve to inspire the credibility of your teachings.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Neo

I grew up with people who did take it as the literal truth. They were very frightening.

What this really does is undercut the validity of the quotes the church does choose to regurgitate. They selectively pick which passages they think are true or that have some merit while ignoring all the rest. Admitting that your source material has problems doesn't serve to inspire the credibility of your teachings.

Same. I live in (and grew up in) a rural, conservative, religous sect of the nation. Around here it seems that the Bible is law. People consider every word and scripture of the Bible to be absolute truth, there are no metaphors or symbolism for them.

I do understand, however, that when read correctly the Bible is, especially the old Testament, a lot of metaphors. I still just choose not to believe it. I guess Faith and Spirituality just isn't my thing. I just can't accept the fact that there is some other realm (for lack of a better word) with an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful spirit guy that created everything from nothing. The mere notion is just laughable to me, personally.

Not just that, but I'm not so sure I want to go to the Heaven described in the Bible. Spending eternity worshipping God isn't appealing. And from what I get out of reading it, it's like you lose your identity in Heaven. I mean, if my mind or soul or whatever is altered to make me think an eternal state of worship is the shiz, I don't want that either. You aren't even you anymore. At least in Hell you know who you are.

And it may be very ironic, but the Bible is one of my favorite things to read. The stories are just interesting as Hell.

[gekko]

WTF is so funny? A tad bit of knowledge on the subject matter and you might realize this has been the Catholic church's teaching for years.

But it's not as fun attacking a subject you're educated on, is it?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Not just that, but I'm not so sure I want to go to the Heaven described in the Bible. Spending eternity worshipping God isn't appealing. And from what I get out of reading it, it's like you lose your identity in Heaven. I mean, if my mind or soul or whatever is altered to make me think an eternal state of worship is the shiz, I don't want that either. You aren't even you anymore. At least in Hell you know who you are.

Worshipping God and losing your identity in your faith are two very different things. Yes, the Bible teaches you how to live your life, and in even secular cases it has succeeded in doing so. Our very sense of right and wrong is derived from the Bible whether you are religious or not.

But if you think the only way to establish an identity is through unrepentant sin, then I think you missed a lot of the message. I mean technically, if your Catholic at least, the Church has been giving out "get out of Hell free cards" for centuries. You can sin away, and still get through the pearly gates.

Personally, I think the world today would be absolutely frightening without the advent of Christianity. I may not believe that Jesus was our savior, but I do think he was a hell of a philosopher.

[Ginkasa]

I believe what he actually meant was they whend you do get to heaven (not necessarily while getting there) you're identity is taken away and you spend eternity just worshipping God unwillingly.

I think whether that's how heaven is like depends on belief...

But if heaven were like that, I think it would be more like you got there, see God, and have to worship His greatness because He's so great... You, yourself, would decide to worship Him for eternity because He's just that kind of guy...

But if you wouldn't choose to do that after seeing him, you probably wouldn't get into heaven, maybe, so...

That's how I would interpret it...

[Neo]

Your sense of self is derived from your seperation from others. I believe part of the reason we are here is that we are in love with the feeling of being an "I." We saw our own reflection in matter and started clinging to it. There are a few physical theories which suggest that eastern religions may be on the right track. There was some good discussion about what it means to have an identity in the clones thread I believe.

One thing I find interesting/amusing is Buddhism. Your goal as a Buddhist is the ceasation of desire since desire is the root cause of all suffering. You can't hurt if you don't want or long for something. They spend most of their time meditating and with the hopes of becoming as enlightened as is possible on this physical plane before rejoining what they consider God to be. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with doing this, but I figure that as long as we are on earth we might as well make use of our time. If we fell into matter because we wanted to know ourselves and to learn it seems like a waste to rush to get back where we started. Yes there will be suffering but pain is a part of life. Without pain and cruelty we wouldn't know joy and kindness.

And while I'm at it, I might as well mention that I think the ultimate purpose of existence is to experience joy. Some would say the purpose is to love. While loving may be the best way to obtain joy, it's still the joy itself we're after. Plus I feel like it's kind of a slap in the face to those who may have recently lost someone or gone through a bad break-up. Some suggest the purpose of life is to learn, but I ask why do we want to learn? We learn because it gives a different kind of joy. We wouldn't learn if it made us feel bad. Same thing with helping people. Helping people and sacrificing ourselves for them makes us feel good. This is really a type of egoism, but I could argue that all actions are selfishly motivated, even that of self-sacrifice. It just depends on your perspective.

I feel like christianity is kind of a jazzed-up version of spirituality. If religion is a book, then christianity is the flashy movie inspired by it. It has its players, heros, enemies, and a personified God which thinks, makes choices, and becomes wrathful. When you apply these qualities it necessarily generates philosophical problems which drive some people (me) up the wall.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Neo

Your sense of self is derived from your seperation from others.

Wrong. Your personality is derived from both nature and nurture, the latter being far more powerful. You are who you are because of those that you have lived with and learned from. Without them, you would be a retarded sociopath (this is fact, not opinion). Religion is a path that preserves the need for family and the group dynamic, which in turn preserves the individual and develops it. Its a two way street. To say that the group destroys individuality is absurd because the individual would not exist without the group, in both physical and phychological terms.

And while I'm at it, I might as well mention that I think the ultimate purpose of existence is to experience joy. Some would say the purpose is to love. While loving may be the best way to obtain joy, it's still the joy itself we're after. Plus I feel like it's kind of a slap in the face to those who may have recently lost someone or gone through a bad break-up. Some suggest the purpose of life is to learn, but I ask why do we want to learn? We learn because it gives a different kind of joy. We wouldn't learn if it made us feel bad. Same thing with helping people. Helping people and sacrificing ourselves for them makes us feel good. This is really a type of egoism, but I could argue that all actions are selfishly motivated, even that of self-sacrifice. It just depends on your perspective.

I agree that the purpose of life is joy, but its how we reach that purpose that tells the story of our lives and determines our ultimate happiness. Mass Murderers find joy through murdering people. Our values, which are reflected by laws, tell us we cannot do that and protects the individual from harm. Some find joy through promiscuity. Our values, reflected by our taboos, tell us that you should not do that and in turn protects us from venerial disease, unwanted pregnancy, etc. Some find joy in a lifelong selfish pursuit of self indulgence. Our values tell us to be generous to one another, which in turn builds a benevolent society, that in turn looks out for the individual. Yes, many Christian and religious social values are in the end selfish, but it is in their unselfish nature that the individual is preserved , protected and in the end is able to find joy. These morals and taboos are not arbitrary, they are to benefit us all.

I feel like christianity is kind of a jazzed-up version of spirituality. If religion is a book, then christianity is the flashy movie inspired by it. It has its players, heros, enemies, and a personified God which thinks, makes choices, and becomes wrathful. When you apply these qualities it necessarily generates philosophical problems which drive some people (me) up the wall.

Well what kaind of Christianity are you talking about? Lutheran? Methodist? Baptist? Evangelical? Catholicism? Orthodox? Mormons? Protestant (Church of England)? There are whole lot of very different versions which you have lumped together.