Obama Chooses Joe Biden as VP

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

Just a quick clarification: McCain is not wealthy. His wife inherited a beer bottling company. That's where the money comes from.

Sometimes I wish these threads wouldn't get so lengthy so quickly. It's so hard to jump in after a few pages and reply to everything.

I can be wordy at times... and full of typos... wow...

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Bond

Just a quick clarification: McCain is not wealthy. His wife inherited a beer bottling company. That's where the money comes from.

Sometimes I wish these threads wouldn't get so lengthy so quickly. It's so hard to jump in after a few pages and reply to everything.

So if I were to inherit a ton of money, that would make me not wealthy, even though I had...a ton of money?

And this isn't about him having money, it's about about being out of touch with reality because of it.

@Prof S. your post didn't point out a single thing McCain has done or said to prove he -is- in touch with reality, you just pushed my points to the side as "quoting Obama's ads", and said McCain was admirable.

I fail to see how him not being able to answer the simple question of "do you think this is right or wrong" makes him admirable. I think it makes him crooked.

And yeah, I could quote some Obama ads, like the one that has John McCain saying "Our economy isn't headed to a recession", but I know -that- one was taken out of context, his house comment was not.

And I'm sure McCain though "Well, if you taken into consideration that everything got REALLY bad after 9/11, then greatly improved, and if I word things just right, I can say that the economy improved." Seriously Professor, you're amazing with facts, but I think you're terrible at reading peoples intentions.

And the difference? Obama can actually pull of being cool, and everyone knows who Ludacris is. No one knows who Daddy Yankee is. They may be doing the same thing, but McCain is obvious that he isn't really comfortable in the situation, and he's just doing it because some campaign manager said it was a good idea.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

So if I were to inherit a ton of money, that would make me not wealthy, even though I had...a ton of money?

And this isn't about him having money, it's about about being out of touch with reality because of it.

@Prof S. your post didn't point out a single thing McCain has done or said to prove he -is- in touch with reality, you just pushed my points to the side as "quoting Obama's ads", and said McCain was admirable.

No, my comments were to show you how your eviudence for his being out of touch are pretty erediculous. Happening to be rich and have houses isn't proof that anyone is out of touch. About the source of his wealth, there is a big difference in formative experience between someone who grows up with ealth and someone who grew up an army brat, spent five years as a POW and nearly 30 serving his nation, most of the time relying only on his salary as a Senator.

I fail to see how him not being able to answer the simple question of "do you think this is right or wrong" makes him admirable. I think it makes him crooked.

No, it doesn't. The question was crooked, silly and not justified by any background. If your asked a question when the questions assumes facts that you don't know are correct, why would you answer it? What context is being omitted in this obviously biased question?

And yeah, I could quote some Obama ads, like the one that has John McCain saying "Our economy isn't headed to a recession", but I know -that- one was taken out of context, his house comment was not.

Our ecomomy isn't headed into a recession. Its had positive growth every quarter for as long as I can remember and went up over 3% last querter. if you think that means we're headed towards a recession, you don't know what a recession is.

And I'm sure McCain though "Well, if you taken into consideration that everything got REALLY bad after 9/11, then greatly improved, and if I word things just right, I can say that the economy improved." Seriously Professor, you're amazing with facts, but I think you're terrible at reading peoples intentions.

And I think you take things the way you want to view them. I already stated my issue with McCain's second statement was that he pandered. No question about it. He should have stuck to his guns and made the bold and risky statement of truth, and thats the fact that we're not in a recession, we are doing better that we were in the early 2000's instead of quibbling over whether it was 2000 or 2001. The economy was terrible all through the early00's and the fact is we ARE doing much better today even during our slow down.

And the difference? Obama can actually pull of being cool, and everyone knows who Ludacris is. No one knows who Daddy Yankee is. They may be doing the same thing, but McCain is obvious that he isn't really comfortable in the situation, and he's just doing it because some campaign manager said it was a good idea.

Well I'm glad Obama can pull off being cool. I suppose you can excuse someone for panswering when they "pull it off" but not when they can't? Thats like saying its ok to steal if you get away with it.

Opinions olike this only show complete bias. Its ok for one candidate and not for the other because you like one and not the other... good for you.

I wish both candidates wouldn't do it. Its insulting but unfortunately deemed necessary in today's political climate.

[Professor S]

I wanted to edit out the insuting comment at the end of my post, but for some reason I can't edit it. I apolgize for the insulting tone, I just don't understand how you can overlook pandering by one candidate, yet condemn the other for the same thing.

[TheGame]

Prof S you're being overly defensive about Mccain in my opinion. You're a good example of someone who's completly sold, I doubt there's anything that'll change your mind in the next few months.

Like I said earlier in the thread though, I'm in a situation where I see very few people who actually support John Mccain. I've heard the speeches, and have been following Mccain for a long time... But honestly, I've probably watched it from biased sources with a biased mindset, but at this point I can't think of any good reason why I'd want to vote for Mccain.

So to clarify your stance, why do you think Mccain should be our next president? If possible, leave comparisions to Obama out of it and mud slinging. Just look at Mccain for himself and what he is and what he stands for. Why would you vote for him? What does he bring to the table that you know from history would make him the most suitable for this job?

I guess side questions could be be, are you a supporter of what bush has done in the last 8 years? If so, what would you say Mccain is carrying on from bush that you like? If not, what things do you think Mccain is going to change?

I'm conserative, but I prefer not to define myself by a party. Since defining myself like that implies I would vote with them no matter what.

[Fyacin]

I like Mcain's foreign policy, I like that he is pro-life, an that's about it. I think he may want to do something about the economy, but doesn't know how (Maybe part of the Palin pick?) I think he may be changing his mind about drilling in the anwar (which I like alot) He is a bit to liberal for me, and I really don't like that he his for global warming, but he is waaaaaay better then Obama. Which is sad, because I don't really like Mcain, Obama just scares me. Especially with a democratic congress. I like some of what Bush has done, but he hasn't done enough. Hopefully Mcain will make the tax cuts permanent, start drilling anywhere we can, and ramp up alternitive energy (Specifically shale coal, clean coal, and nuclear) In addition to finishing the fight in Iraw, and presenting a strong country against Iran and Russia.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Prof S you're being overly defensive about Mccain in my opinion. You're a good example of someone who's completly sold, I doubt there's anything that'll change your mind in the next few months.

Like I said earlier in the thread though, I'm in a situation where I see very few people who actually support John Mccain. I've heard the speeches, and have been following Mccain for a long time... But honestly, I've probably watched it from biased sources with a biased mindset, but at this point I can't think of any good reason why I'd want to vote for Mccain.

So to clarify your stance, why do you think Mccain should be our next president? If possible, leave comparisions to Obama out of it and mud slinging. Just look at Mccain for himself and what he is and what he stands for. Why would you vote for him? What does he bring to the table that you know from history would make him the most suitable for this job?

I guess side questions could be be, are you a supporter of what bush has done in the last 8 years? If so, what would you say Mccain is carrying on from bush that you like? If not, what things do you think Mccain is going to change?

I'm conserative, but I prefer not to define myself by a party. Since defining myself like that implies I would vote with them no matter what.

Now you're changing the subject. The topic at hand was whether or not McCain was guilty of being out-of-touch in any special way. Vampyr made his claims and I refuted them. If you'd like an explanation as to why I'm for McCain, I'm all for it.

I think I've been quite clear on why I'm a supporter of McCain through my openess when it comes to my stance on issues.

1) Iraq - We need to stay in until the job is done. Thats McCain's stance and thats been my stance from the beginning. If this were the only issue that I agreed with McCain on, I would be his supporter compared to Obama.

2) Economy - I have made it clear that I am a supply-sider since I came on these boards. Low taxes plus low spending. I know Obama has talked a big game when it comes to giving tax breaks to 95% of the economy, and just raising taxes on the rich, which is idiocy if you want ot build the American economy since they create the jobs, but he also is in favor of an obscene spending bill. Most economists and newspapers agree that his policies would only increase our national debt... or Obama would do what I expect and say "Whoops! Looks like you're going to have to pay more too!"

His consistent voting against spending is one of the things I support the most about McCain, and separates him from the Republicans of the last 8 years and Bush especially who has had an open wallet policy, and not just for the war. To be honest,. war spending is a drop in the ocean when it comes to our debt.

3) Experience - He has proven to be one of the \most effective and respected Senators in American history. He has a wealth of experience in both the economy and foreign relations. He has seen it all before, from Vietnam, to the Cold War, Peristrioka(sp?), the Iraq War. He has the context to translate world and domestic events.

4) Independence - McCain does what he feels is right. Does that mean he's never guilty of pandering or standing behind his party at times? Of course not, but no one is. But his record of bucking his party's stances that he disagrees with is long and strong. People try and debunk this by saying that he voted with Bush 90% of the time... well Obama voted with Bush 60% of the time. If you don't know what those issues were, the number is meaningless. Political statistics exist to fool people, like polls, and thats why I rarely use them.

5) Diplomacy - When the Georgia invasion took place, McCain was the first to analyze and understand the nature of it immediately. Bush didn't, the media didn't, and Obama didn't. McCain did. Talk without the legitimate threat of action does nothing but empower nations that want to exert dominance, like Russia and Iran. I believe McCain understands this more than any other candidate today.

For the record my perfect ticket is McCain/Powell, and I've made that clear FOR YEARS on this forum in presidential talk.

To be honest, if at this point you don't unbderstand why I'm for McCain, you haven't listened to me, McCain or both of us. Its been quite clear for some time. Now add to the that the fact that he's running against Obama, who I view as a borderline marxist, and it's a no-brainer.

[Professor S]

Almost forgot:

6) Health care - Single payer would be the biggest mistake in the history of American domestic policy. McCain's policy on this is a $5,000 tax credit for families to get their own health care, and be able to choose the kind they weant, which keeps competition in place, and competition increases the quality of the product. Compared to Obama's policy, which I believe he stated would only save the average family under $3,000 a year in health care costs and give them little to no choice. But If I'm wrong on the number, please let me know

The choice remains with the individual, and philisophoically, that is very important to me.

[BreakABone]

As an aside saw Obama's speech yesterday and maybe it is I watch too much wrestling, but the whole thing had a WrestleMania feel to it.

Huge set piece. Outside. Titantron. Fireworks going off the top of the building. Confetti.

MAybe he did smell What The Barack is cooking.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

As an aside saw Obama's speech yesterday and maybe it is I watch too much wrestling, but the whole thing had a WrestleMania feel to it.

Huge set piece. Outside. Titantron. Fireworks going off the top of the building. Confetti.

MAybe he did smell What The Barack is cooking.

On a non-partisan note, I thank that spectatcle was a big mistake. It only does more to feed the McCain advertising machine when it comes to painting Obvama as an out-of-touch elitist celebrity, and those ads have been very successful.

Obama needed to give a state of the union address, heavy on substance and not spectacle. He added a little more policy to his acceptance speech, but he should have done much more. I think he was overly negative about the plight of the American people as well. A lot of middle class won't want to hear how bad they're doing, especially if they're not doing all that bad.

[The Germanator]

Originally Posted by Professor S

On a non-partisan note, I thank that spectatcle was a big mistake. It only does more to feed the McCain advertising machine when it comes to painting Obvama as an out-of-touch elitist celebrity, and those ads have been very successful.

Obama needed to give a state of the union address, heavy on substance and not spectacle. He added a little more policy to his acceptance speech, but he should have done much more. I think he was overly negative about the plight of the American people as well. A lot of middle class won't want to hear how bad they're doing, especially if they're not doing all that bad.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your criticisms of his speech as I would like to see more substance as well, I think the the "celebrity/elitist" ads are absolutely ludicrous. Maybe you can help me with this, but what exactly is that ad campaign even trying to accomplish? "Look at all of those Obama supporters!! Haha! THEY REALLY LIKE THEIR CANDIDATE!! Hey guys, look how popular this guy is, don't vote for the really popular guy that everyone likes!" I patrol the Fark.com forums and when the Republican trolls (not saying you are one of them by any means, they are far worse ) have nothing better to say they just say something like "Ooh, look at the Obamesiah and his followers, etc, etc...The best you can do is attack the guy because people like him? It just seems totally transparent.

I suppose it could be more effective for an independent, but I feel like McCain has lost his "elitism" angle anyway. In this race we have a black guy who was raised by a single mother in a middle class family who worked his way up to go to a good school. This same guy turned down a higher paying job to go into public service. And this guy is an elitist?! I'm sorry, I thought the gray haired white man who can't remember how many houses he had fits that bill. I'm very thankful the Obama campaign hit him hard on that as well. If there is one thing Republicans do better it is to attack worthless tidbits better, but I'm glad the Obama campaign latched on to the "7 houses gaffe" along with the "not rich until you make 5 million line." I don't know, I just see that whole ad campaign as grasping for straws from McCain, and I hope that independent minded voters aren't idiotic enough to fall for something that can be seen through so easily.

[Professor S]

I never said the Obama elitism attacks are necessarily valid. I'm saying they are EFFECTIVE, and they are. McCain has been steadily gaining on Obama since they began, and the star-studded stadium spectacle that was his aceptance speech only fed into that image McCain and Co. are trying to create.

Also, the chanting of O-BAM-A in the ads is meant to play on the fanaticism that has followed Obama's campaign, with the fainting women and all, and create nervousness about it. Its been effective as well, especially since Obama is the more unknown out of the two candidates. McCain is McCain, and he has a long record that makes people more comfortable. Obama is still a relative unknown, and there are a lot of people that are uneasy voting for a political unknown for President. Like my wife, and she's a life long democrat but is voting McCain this year. And trust me, it has nothing to do with my influence. She never listens to me anyway...

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

To be honest, if at this point you don't unbderstand why I'm for McCain, you haven't listened to me, McCain or both of us. Its been quite clear for some time. Now add to the that the fact that he's running against Obama, who I view as a borderline marxist, and it's a no-brainer.

Honestly outside of this and the other two threads open here, I have been listening to you. The thing is though, I've found it to be clear that you dislike Obama more than you like Mccain. Even in your above post I asked for you to leave out Obama in your explanation if possible, which it does look like 'compared to your other posts' you tried. (/salute)

I was just looking for a clear viewpoint from a Mccain supporter. :P I am conservitive by my own beliefs, but I do not claim a party since what it implies is that I'd support them no matter what. I will openly admit that I did vote for bush in 2004, and I feel like at the time I voted for him that he was misleading about what he hoped to do in his second term.. And the events of his second term showed that he was misleading in his first to. So as it stands now I'm strongly against Mr. President.

I do have some comments though... For #1, your opinion on Iraq. In your personal opinion what would you define as the job being "finished" in Iraq? And do you honestly think we're going to reach this goal realistically with how we're handling the war out there now?

In my opinion, I don't see a resolution there anymore, I just see Americans endlessly babysitting the people there and endlessly causing a distraction for the rest of the middle east. I think eventually we just need to pull out and let them handle their own social issues. I think in time if we were to ever reach this so called "peace" in Iraq, that the other countries around them will simply turn on them and start killing them off again anyway.

As for the economy (only drawing references to Obama because you did), I don't think myself or my kids stand to benifit more from what Mccain wants to do. Obama seems to want big changes, but a lot of his changes are rooted in what America stood for in the first place. Being the true land of oppertunity, and being strongly in the interest of the middle/lower class people instead of trying to once again spread the gap between the middle and upper class.

As for experience, there's no denying that he has a lot of experience, but judging off of all the slip ups he's done and all the flip flopping on forgien policy.. And given the fact that I've seen him outright paint false pictures, or show lack of understanding for what is going on overseas.. I don't think that his experience is helping him much. I think he has good advisors for speeches, but when it comes to live answers he sounds very clueless and I can't respect him at all for that.

As for Mccain's "independence", I think that's proven to be a bad quality for him, because his independent stances (that I have seen) go against what most americans think/want. That reminds me a lot of some other bad president we recently, or maybe even still have. As for him voting with bush 90% of the time, that's not shocking to me, nor is Obama voting with him 60%.

The way things stand, I did vote for bush to begin with for a reason, so I'm not completly against all his views either. Like I said, I am conservitive. But sadly in today's world, the bad is going to over shadow the good. Mccain openly supports bush on things I strongly disagree with, which is bad. In fact, hearing obama voted with him 60% of the time shows that Obama is reasonable and knowing that makes me more comfortable with my decision as it stands now.

[Jason1]

Okay, staying in Iraq until "the job is done" is rediculous. Mcain has said we should stay in Iraq 100 years if we have to. He backs this statement up by referring to the fact that we still have troops in Germany and Japan after world war II. WAKE UP PEOPLE, Germany and Japan arent Muslim countries! Thats the difference! As long as we have troops in Iraq, there will be terrorists plotting to kill americans. It really is that simple. Pull out of Iraq = stops terrorism.

And off shore drilling isnt a short term answer, and it isnt even a long term answer. Its a lose - lose situation. People act like off shore drilling will all of a sudden bring our gas prices down. Not going to happen. At the rates we are currently consuming, the worlds oil reserves will be completley gone in 50 years. Thats a scary though to me, we need to end our dependence on all oil, not drill ourselves out of the problem. We cant just drill more and expect this problem to go away forever.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Honestly outside of this and the other two threads open here, I have been listening to you. The thing is though, I've found it to be clear that you dislike Obama more than you like Mccain. Even in your above post I asked for you to leave out Obama in your explanation if possible, which it does look like 'compared to your other posts' you tried. (/salute)

I was just looking for a clear viewpoint from a Mccain supporter. :P I am conservitive by my own beliefs, but I do not claim a party since what it implies is that I'd support them no matter what. I will openly admit that I did vote for bush in 2004, and I feel like at the time I voted for him that he was misleading about what he hoped to do in his second term.. And the events of his second term showed that he was misleading in his first to. So as it stands now I'm strongly against Mr. President.

I do have some comments though... For #1, your opinion on Iraq. In your personal opinion what would you define as the job being "finished" in Iraq? And do you honestly think we're going to reach this goal realistically with how we're handling the war out there now?

In my opinion, I don't see a resolution there anymore, I just see Americans endlessly babysitting the people there and endlessly causing a distraction for the rest of the middle east. I think eventually we just need to pull out and let them handle their own social issues. I think in time if we were to ever reach this so called "peace" in Iraq, that the other countries around them will simply turn on them and start killing them off again anyway.

As for the economy (only drawing references to Obama because you did), I don't think myself or my kids stand to benifit more from what Mccain wants to do. Obama seems to want big changes, but a lot of his changes are rooted in what America stood for in the first place. Being the true land of oppertunity, and being strongly in the interest of the middle/lower class people instead of trying to once again spread the gap between the middle and upper class.

As for experience, there's no denying that he has a lot of experience, but judging off of all the slip ups he's done and all the flip flopping on forgien policy.. And given the fact that I've seen him outright paint false pictures, or show lack of understanding for what is going on overseas.. I don't think that his experience is helping him much. I think he has good advisors for speeches, but when it comes to live answers he sounds very clueless and I can't respect him at all for that.

As for Mccain's "independence", I think that's proven to be a bad quality for him, because his independent stances (that I have seen) go against what most americans think/want. That reminds me a lot of some other bad president we recently, or maybe even still have. As for him voting with bush 90% of the time, that's not shocking to me, nor is Obama voting with him 60%.

The way things stand, I did vote for bush to begin with for a reason, so I'm not completly against all his views either. Like I said, I am conservitive. But sadly in today's world, the bad is going to over shadow the good. Mccain openly supports bush on things I strongly disagree with, which is bad. In fact, hearing obama voted with him 60% of the time shows that Obama is reasonable and knowing that makes me more comfortable with my decision as it stands now.

1) After reading this post, you're not a conservative. If you believe that anything that Obama says about the economy and taxes reflects what this country was founded on, your confusing the constitution with the communist manifesto. He is a redistribition of wealth, new deal liberal, and thats NOTHING new, just a reflection of past failed policies.

2) My policies has been obvious since I joined this forum, and most of them are reflected in McCain's policies. You should KNOW why I'm for McCain. There's no need for me to repeat it yet again. If I'm concentrating more on Obama its because:

a) There are a lot more vocal liberals on this forum than conservatives, so the topic has been Obama more than not. Plus the Dem convention just took place. Of course Obama will be the topic of conversation.

b) Obama is the unknown, not McCain. Plus, he stands for EVERYTHING I'm against and I believe an Obama presidency combined with a Pelosi and Reed controlled congress could transform out nation into something it was never intended to be, and never should be.

3) You pick on me for not being clear enough on why I support McCain... but where is your criticism of the Obama supportrers who spend most of their time criticizing the Republicans and voting more against Bush than anything else? Its non-existant.

4) In a two party system, the opposition is just as important as the person running. Your voting not just for something you believe in, but against something you DON'T.

I find your entire critique of my posiiton to be disingenuopus at best, and while you say you're a conservative, I don;t see any conservatove beliefs reflective in your views. Your support of Obama defies all conservative belief. I declare shenanigans.