Obama Chooses Joe Biden as VP

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Okay, staying in Iraq until "the job is done" is rediculous. Mcain has said we should stay in Iraq 100 years if we have to. He backs this statement up by referring to the fact that we still have troops in Germany and Japan after world war II. WAKE UP PEOPLE, Germany and Japan arent Muslim countries! Thats the difference! As long as we have troops in Iraq, there will be terrorists plotting to kill americans. It really is that simple. Pull out of Iraq = stops terrorism.

Two answer both your and Game's questions about the war: We leave when there is a strong, self-governing and self-sustaining government to fill the void. Its that simple. And Jason, your simplistic argument rfeflects more wishful thinking than reality. Most dems and republicans agree that if we left now Iraq would fall into chaos.

And off shore drilling isnt a short term answer, and it isnt even a long term answer. Its a lose - lose situation. People act like off shore drilling will all of a sudden bring our gas prices down. Not going to happen. At the rates we are currently consuming, the worlds oil reserves will be completley gone in 50 years. Thats a scary though to me, we need to end our dependence on all oil, not drill ourselves out of the problem. We cant just drill more and expect this problem to go away forever.

Who do you think saying that it will? Not anyone running for president. Both candidates want to invest in alternative fuels, but only one has a realistic plan to fill the gap until we get there. Thats McCain. There is not magic alternative fuel wand that will fix our energy crisis. We need a COMPREHENSIVE policy expoiting all reserves that we have an developing more for the day when we can move beyond carbon.

And simply ANNOUNCING we have opened up areas to drilling will plummet gas prices. When Bush annouced the removal of the presidential ban, gas started dropping, just because global speculation got nervous. Its basic economics.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

1) After reading this post, you're not a conservative. If you believe that anything that Obama says about the economy and taxes reflects what this country was founded on, your confusing the constitution with the communist manifesto. He is a redistribition of wealth, new deal liberal, and thats NOTHING new, just a reflection of past failed policies.

For one I am a conservative. Though if you're opinion that I'm not based on one election then that's your choice. And yes I would agree that Obama is definently not conservative, and I never said he was.. in fact he goes against the meaning of the word. But once again, that's why I don't define myself as a party, because eventually if someone gets into office and makes bad decisions, then someone needs to come in and clean up their mess.

Obama only appeals to me because I think that Bush did not do a good job. Even though Bush did bad I gave him a second chance because of social issues I agree with him on, and because I felt he'd handle the war better. I didn't know Bush couldn't make any realistic judgement on Iraq, and what really threw me off was how he is so much for linking Mexico, Canada, and the US more.

2) My policies has been obvious since I joined this forum, and most of them are reflected in McCain's policies. You should KNOW why I'm for McCain. There's no need for me to repeat it yet again.

And how many political threads have you seen me reply to? I'm only asking juding off of the DNC thread, Mccain VP thread, and this thread. Where you displayed being extremely anti Obama, and hardly could make any reasonable good case for Mccain.

If I'm concentrating more on Obama its because:

a) There are a lot more vocal liberals on this forum than conservatives, so the topic has been Obama more than not. Plus the Dem convention just took place. Of course Obama will be the topic of conversation.

When I look at most of what people are saying, they're directly attacking Mccain, then you turn around and try to place the spotlight on Obama quick without referencing the good in Mccain. And of course, most things that you claimed were good about him people quickly snapped back at and you'd leave it open ended with no answer. That's why I needed you to clarify it before.

b) Obama is the unknown, not McCain. Plus, he stands for EVERYTHING I'm against and I believe an Obama presidency combined with a Pelosi and Reed controlled congress could transform out nation into something it was never intended to be, and never should be.

And what would that be?

3) You pick on me for not being clear enough on why I support McCain... but where is your criticism of the Obama supportrers who spend most of their time criticizing the Republicans and voting more against Bush than anything else? Its non-existant.

That's obvious, its because I'm voting against Bush too. :P And sorry if you think I'm picking on you, if it helps I respect you a lot for being an open Mccain supporter. I kow he has a lot of supporters out there, but I've yet to sit down and have a conversation with one. In fact, outside of this forum and on the news itself, I've yet to see anyone claim openly to be a Mccain supporter.

4) In a two party system, the opposition is just as important as the person running. Your voting not just for something you believe in, but against something you DON'T.

And I can agree to that. But repeating what I said before, I knew from the gate you were against Obama and never questioned that. Nor do or did I expect to make any arguements that'd change you. I was just looking for a positive opinion on why you'd vote for Mccain.

I find your entire critique of my posiiton to be disingenuopus at best, and while you say you're a conservative, I don;t see any conservatove beliefs reflective in your views. Your support of Obama defies all conservative belief. I declare shenanigans.

Okay, then to make it clear. I'm pro life, anti gay marriage, I think that America should be proactive about war and squash problems before they get to big, instead of waiting for people to be fighting in our backyard. I'm also a christian, and I do not support any laws that go against my beliefs.. Which is a lot of what Democrats push for, which is why most of the time you're going to find I vote with the republicans.

But on the flip side, I'm not a millionaire. I'd consider myself in the lower to middle class tops as far as finances go, and I do support changes that I feel stand to benifit my group the most. From how I was raised, I had no choice but to work right out of HS, though I did go to college at the same time it didn't progress as easilly as I believe it should have.

I also believe that supporting the American people and giving them a good way of life is equally important as fighting to defend it. Not that I'm complaining about how we live now, but I do think that progress can be made.

And, while I said before that I'm all for being proactive on wars and squashing what could be considered threats, I feel that the war in Iraq itself started off of a false premise. And because of how the people will not stop fighting its obvious that Iraq never wanted our help. So in this case of war, I think we should back out of it in a timely manner, our presence there is causing more of a problem then its helping as far as gaining a resolution over there.

And I guess to further my views on war, I do not believe in political wars. I don't believe in wars aimed at one person or group, instead it should be focused on both the group and the people who support the group. If you're unwilling to kill the supporters, then there's no reason to fight because if they didn't want their leader bad enough they could simply have their own civil war and work out their own issues.

There that's my personal stance on politics, though a very dumbed down version without many examples.. But I'm not trying to write a term paper for the forums though. :P And as you may have noticed, my stance doesn't go in line with Mccain or Obama 100%, nor does it go alone with Democrats or Republicans 100%. The reason I'm voting for Obama right now, is because I belive he's is more capible of making the right decisions for the issues I feel are affecting me right now. And I'm well aware of what things I may regret.

[Fyacin]

I don't understand how you can be against abortion and vote for Obama. I don't understand how you can be a christian and vote for Obama. He is the most pro-abortion senator ever. Economic issues notwithstanding.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Two answer both your and Game's questions about the war: We leave when there is a strong, self-governing and self-sustaining government to fill the void. Its that simple. And Jason, your simplistic argument rfeflects more wishful thinking than reality. Most dems and republicans agree that if we left now Iraq would fall into chaos.

Its a double edged sword though, if we stay there, there will also stay a state of chaos too. In fact, right now, with us there, there is chaos. So if we leave nothing changes except for the fact that there's no more American casualties.

If we somehow meet this unrealistic goal of the people there stopping their hate for americans and accepting a government we set in place there, Iraq is just going to turn into the new isreal and everyone is going to want to break in and kill them anyway. I think the only way the problem will reach a real resolution is if THEY resove it themselves among their own people, just like we resolved our issues ourselves after fighting off the "opressor".

And to be honest, my old opinion was like yours, that we could just make a government there and leave, But its NOT going to work. If it was going to work, and the people were going to accept it, then it'd already been done. But they will not accept Americans changing them.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Fyacin

I don't understand how you can be against abortion and vote for Obama. I don't understand how you can be a christian and vote for Obama. He is the most pro-abortion senator ever. Economic issues notwithstanding.

As for the Abortion thing, time has shown that there's not going to be an outright answer enforced for it. There's always going to be enough pro life people out there to keep the fight alive. Since this is america, choice is going to win eventually even though I think its wrong. I didn't see Bush making any strong stands on it or making any changes to how its handled, nor do I expect Mccain to.

And last I checked both Mccain and Obama are christians.

[Fyacin]

See I am going to have to disagree there, abortion is a big enough issue for me that I will not vote for anyone that is for it. Don't want to derail this thread into an abortion debate though (or a religious one).

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by Fyacin

I don't understand how you can be against abortion and vote for Obama. I don't understand how you can be a christian and vote for Obama. He is the most pro-abortion senator ever. Economic issues notwithstanding.

I cant believe that religion/abortion is always such a big issue. I could give a shit what religion either of the candidates are. And abortion is such a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. Its not going to change, no way no how. Get over it people, someones stance on Abortion has nothing to do with what kind of president they will be. Same with religion.

I would love to see an athiest win. It will never happen because there are way too many right wing nut job conservatives. I cant wait for Religulous to come out.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Jason1

I cant believe that religion/abortion is always such a big issue.

They always will be, though I agree in politics it probably shouldn't be. Abortion is something I've given up on for a while though, both views on it has valid points, I just personally think its wrong. I don't think any president is really going to make a strong stand on it.

As for voting based off of open promotion of one's religion, that was one of the big things that sold me for Bush. In the end, once he got back in office he stopped sounding like a chritian and I think just went back to his true self. All Bush did by doing that before, is made me turn religion into a non factor when it comes to my vote.

The only way I'd accept it as a factor again is someone who was running did openly deny christ and said they are an athiest. In the case of this year, I'm not gonna vote for mccain because he's "more openly christian" then Obama. Because the truth is that when they're open about any opinion like that, they're doing it for votes.

[Bond]

McCain has actually been historically very reluctant to talk about his religion.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

McCain has actually been historically very reluctant to talk about his religion.

That's actually true from what I have seen. My point, however, was that religion is not going to sway my vote one way ot the other unles one canidate is openly denies christ. The Mccain point was merely an example, I could edit the names and switch them around and it still means the same thing.

[Professor S]

Game, I can see our differences in conservative belief then, and you're pretty much the exact opposite of me.

I'm very fiscally conservative and socially moderate, and you flip that, but please don;t state that when it comes to the economy Obama reflects a conservative nature. Our founders believed in individuals, not a collectivist government.

Personally, I don't believe the US government has much of anything to do with social issues. That is for the society that the goevrnment protects to decide, at leat to a point.

My social issues:

1) Abortion - No abortions after the 4th month. If the mother's life is in jeopardy after that time, then the doctor decides which is more viable if a coice must be made (which will likely be the mother). The point is, once a life is declared a life, they are all equal. Life is life.

2) Stem-Cell Research - I love it, just not from embyos. All the promising advances in this research come from areas other than embryonic stem cells, such as umbillical (sp?) cord stem cells. This is an abortion fight by proxy, and wile I'm moderate on abortion, the idea of creating the first steps of life for the intention of destroying it kind of sickens me.

3) Gay Marriage - If gay marriage threatens hetrero marriage, then marriage is a very weak institution. The truth is the anti-gay marriage ban is just a way to socially separate gays from straights. Its silly this is such a huge issue in politics.

4) Immigration - Forget the illegal immigrants, and go after the employers... HARD. If no one was hiring illegals, there wouldn't be so many here because there would be no reason for them to cross over. Until there is a solution that centers on businesses hiring the illegals, all this talk is nothing but lip service.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

1) Abortion - No abortions after the 4th month.

2) Stem-Cell Research - I love it, just not from embyos.

Why not set up a program that harvests aborted stem-cells, seems like a win-win to me

Originally Posted by Professor S

3) Gay Marriage - If gay marriage threatens hetrero marriage, then marriage is a very weak institution. The truth is the anti-gay marriage ban is just a way to socially separate gays from straights. Its silly this is such a huge issue in politics.

agreed. from a social standpoint, marriage is just an institution between two people. never understood the opposition to gay marriage other than ignorance and discrimination.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

I cant believe that religion/abortion is always such a big issue. I could give a shit what religion either of the candidates are. And abortion is such a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. Its not going to change, no way no how. Get over it people, someones stance on Abortion has nothing to do with what kind of president they will be. Same with religion.

I would love to see an athiest win. It will never happen because there are way too many right wing nut job conservatives. I cant wait for Religulous to come out.

Abraham Lincoln was a purported Atheist I believe. Maybe not by definition, but apparently he had religious doubts.

I suspect with minimal research you would find that many historical figures deemed themselves 'doubters' of religion.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

And off shore drilling isnt a short term answer, and it isnt even a long term answer. Its a lose - lose situation. People act like off shore drilling will all of a sudden bring our gas prices down. Not going to happen. At the rates we are currently consuming, the worlds oil reserves will be completley gone in 50 years. Thats a scary though to me, we need to end our dependence on all oil, not drill ourselves out of the problem. We cant just drill more and expect this problem to go away forever.

I hate to burst your bubble (and thousands of other people who lurk around the dark corners of the Internet) but if there was an efficient, cheap and easy alternative to oil you would be using it right now. The fact of the matter is the eternal combustion engine is cheap and efficient. More to the point, there are millions of cars on the road right now, and they all need gas. The American economy runs on oil, the American war machine runs on oil, and so does the rest of the world. That said, we will need oil for at least the next 10 years. I'd rather tap our resources (like Alaska) and maybe see gas dip in price. Actually, part of why gas is so expensive is because of our dependency on foreign oil. Foreign oil is a huge fucking problem; our government, the lobbyists, and the Saudis are having a huge circle jerk.

That said...I LOVEEEE alternative fuel. I'm on board, have been for the past 10 years. Yeah, in 4th or 5th fucking grade we did a project on how plastic bags use petrolium and how it increases oil prices and we need to find alternate fuel sources. Here's some fucking beef: nuclear power. The biggest problem with electric cars is....

Tada! Electricity comes from using OIL!

Electricity also can come from using nuclear power....as for excess nuclear waste? Me, personally, I think we should just blast the stuff into outer space but I'm sure there is a reason we have not done so yet.

I'm not so sure hydrogen or ethanol are good long-term solutions. And, right now solar cells suck ass sooo.....

Personally, on the subject of energy, I'd lean towards the guy who had the most money on nuclear power. And on finding a way to lean less of foreign oil.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Okay, then to make it clear. I'm pro life, anti gay marriage

I won't even touch the issue but I hope you see some contradiction in this statement.