Politics - Follow the Money

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

I don't think its John Stewart who has changed, I say its John Mccain who has. John Mccain has done nothing but made himself an easy target for the media because of his bad character.

I hear this all the time, but I've never heard an example of how John McCain has really changed. People bring up his opposition to the Bush tax cuts, but thats a misnomer. He voted against them because they weren't attached to a spending cut and he knew the cuts would pass anyway. It was a statement vote. Poeple mention drilling, but $4 a gallon gas changes things, and he's STILL against drilling in ANWAR. He's always been for the surge and led the fight for that, and he's never voted for a tax increase in his entire history. He's always been against corporate corruption, fighting for legislation in 2006 that was killed by the democrats (I mentioned this in another post with citations). Please name for me areas where he has changed considerably and there seems to be no reason other than politics.

And by the way, you said "..Obama is consistently talking about the improper nature of McCain's association with these companies..". Maybe I missed this somewhere, I don't watch much TV, but I read the paper every day at work, I think I may have missed this. Can you post some links to where Obama himself is attacking Mccain for taking money from them?

Here are two. The second directly links McCain and his ties to the credit industry:





EDIT: Looking back on those, they have more to do with position in a campaign than finances, so I'll concede the point about the Obama campaign ads. Obama was smart not to mention finances I suppose, and found another rout that was affective. Smart politics. But still, I believe my media criticism holds.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I hear this all the time, but I've never heard an example of how John McCain has really changed.

-EDIT- By the way, I'd rather we not discuss the person in the video, just the points he makes. Personal attacks on him are irrelevant to me.

[Professor S]

Well lets inumerate this person's points:

1) Falwell - Who the fuck cares? He sucked up to evangelicals he needed to get the nomination. Its a non-issue. I'll concede a meaningless political flip-flop that has had no effect on McCain's legislative track record.

2) Torture - This "Young Turk's" accusations are at best severe ignorance and at worst intended deception. Here is the bill McCain voted for and the reasons why

Mr. McCain, of Arizona, said he believed it would be a mistake to limit C.I.A. interrogators to using only those techniques that were enumerated in the Field Manual, which he noted was a public document.

“When we passed the Military Commissions Act, we said that the C.I.A. should have the ability to use additional techniques,” Mr. McCain told reporters Friday in Oshkosh, Wis. “None of those techniques would entail violating the Detainee Treatment Act, which said that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment are prohibited.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/us...17torture.html

The bill that McCain voted for did not violate ANY of his principles that he has maintained on torture from the Detainee Treatment Act. As for the first bill, Bush vetoed it and the person in this video says "he (McCain) did nothing, and thats not the worst part"? He voted for the bill! He's a Senator, not The Punisher. Was he supposed to challnge Bush to a duel? He did what he could and has maintained his stance on this issue.

As for this person's claim that McCain voted for a bill that allowed torture like he experienced in Vietnam, well this person is a flat out liar and a disgusting liar at that.

This is some of what McCain went through, in his own words:

..the guards, who were all in the room—about 10 of them—really laid into me. They bounced me from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes. Then I was taken to a small room. For punishment they would almost always take you to another room where you didn't have a mosquito net or a bed or any clothes. For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards. My left arm was broken again and my ribs were cracked.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/....html?PageNr=1

Waterboarding is the worst example people have of US torture, which tends to be mentally torturous and not physical. Waterboarding never hurts a detainee and the detainee is never in any danger, they just THINK they are. For this person to even make a comment like "you voted for the same treatment" disgusts me beyond words.


3) Immigration - Not exactly a flip flop. This was McCain's response that the person in the video is referring to:

No, it would not, because we know what the situation is today. So to say that that would come to the floor of the Senate, it won't. We went through various amendments which prevented that proposal. We will secure the borders first when I am president. I know how to d that. I come from a border state, where we know about building walls, and vehicle barriers, and sensors, and all of the things necessary. I will have the border state governors certify the borders are secured. Then we will move onto the other aspects of this issue, as importantly as tamper-proof biometric documents, which then, unless an employer hires someone with those documents, that employer will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That will cause a lot of people to leave voluntarily.

The facts are that the bill that McCain initially supported entailed everything that he said he would do in this quote. In fact, the original bill would not come into effect UNTIL a border fence was completed! And for the record, read the response, and McCain states more to the effect that the bill is DEAD, and won't come back, so the question is a non-issue.

I will admit the answer he gave was... hazy... but it wasn't quite as clear as this person would have you believe. Here is a quote McCain also made regarding this issue that the person in the video DIDN'T mention.

Q: If the Senate passed your bill, S1433, the McCain-Kennedy Immigration Bill, would you as president sign it?

A: Yeah, but look, the lesson is, it isn't going to come. The lesson is they want the border secured first. I come from a border state. I know how to fix those borders with walls, with UAVs, with sensors, with cameras, with vehicle barriers. They want the border secured first. And I will do that, and, as president, I will have the border state governors certify those borders are secured. And then we will have a temporary worker program with tamper-proof biometric documents, and any employer who employs someone in any other circumstances will be prosecuted. That means a lot of people will leave just normally because they're not going to be able to get their job. Then we have to get rid of two million people who have committed crimes here. We have to round them up and deport them. As far as the others are concerned, we were in an ongoing discussion when this whole thing collapsed.

The funny part is, what he talks about here isn't all that different from the bill that failed. He's essentially trying to repackage it as being more strict, when its really not that much toughter at all, to satisfy the millions of people who were very much against the first bill mainly because of misunderstanding it.

By the way, what happened to this issue since the Republican primary? You never heard about it in the Democrat primary and its been non-existant in the general election!

4) Taxes - This is the accusation that cracks me up the most. I will repeat this again, as I've posted this at LEAST 4 times now:

MCCAIN VOTED AGAINST THE BUSH TAX CUTS AT FIRST AS A PROTEST BECAUSE THEY DID NOT INCLUDE SPENDING CUTS.

In fact McCain had his own tax proposal that included spending cuts at the time. In the end, McCain knew the legislation would pass so he voted to show his displeasure with the lack of cuts to spending.

"I voted on [against] the tax cuts because I knew that unless we had spending under control, we were going to face a disaster. We let spending get completely out of control. Those tax cuts have to remain permanent, otherwise people experience a tax increase [McCain has NEVER voted for a tax increase]. We let spending get out of control. We presided over the biggest increase in the size of government that with--since the "Great Society." We let it get out of control. If we had had the spending restraints that I proposed, we would be talking about more tax cuts today.

In essence, the only thing that this person was correct on was Falwell, which is a non-issue.

[Professor S]

Game, any response to my rebuttal?

[TheGame]

If you haven't noticed, as of late I haven't really been argueing with you. Moreso asking for your opinions on things opposed to calling you right or wrong. Outside of deflating the sell out with Falwell, I think that was a good informative reply.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

If you haven't noticed, as of late I haven't really been argueing with you. Moreso asking for your opinions on things opposed to calling you right or wrong. Outside of deflating the sell out with Falwell, I think that was a good informative reply.

Ok, thats all I needed (positive feedback is welcomed as well as negative, lets me know I'm not just pissing in the wind ). I find that some people, perhaps I lumped you in, tend not to discuss topics when their arguments fail the test of citation. I made the mistake of transposing the opinions of the person you posted as your own, and assumed your question was not honest, and I apologize. Around here I tend to assume the worst when it comes to political discussion

As for the Falwell thing, I can't disagree withe the fact that McCain has pandered more to the Christian right. But I can also recognize that this pandering has not affected his legislation or political hot-buttons in the least. If McCain suddenly supported a bill to eliminate evolutionary theory from public schools, I think this would be a big deal, but he hasn't so I just chalk it up to the nature of presidential politics. The only thing you could hang on that would be McCain's anti-abortion stance, but he always has been anti-abortion, and unapologetically so.

To me, his legislative consistency makes it a bit of a non-issue, especially compared to the out and out mistruths and lies that the person in the video tries to purport.