It was bound to happen...

[Seth]

I don't think being the Federal government removes constitutional restraint just because so much attention is paid to the elecion every four years. Localized government is more meaningful and direct in it's implications, the US is built around that ideology. Who wants to be under the 'control' of a centralized system, without more local representation? What happens when Obama(figurehead not policy maker) decides that fascist maneuvering takes precedence over a stagnate economy? The millions of t-shirt wearing morons embrace it because obviously a polar opposite partisan is going to be doing 'good' in contrast to the last 8 years of 'bad'.

so, is the 2nd amendment relevant prof_S? just curious as to your thoughts since you hold the 10th as vitally important.


we're all gonna be obamanated pretty soon. I predict that, at this rate, within 4 years they're gonna have to make use of all the empty detainment centres located throughout the country. Not everyone's going to step in line to suck the presidents dick everytime he talks about hope when food stamps and 'socialized healthcare' are prescribed for the upcoming onslaught of consequences resulting from the now overt fascist meandering. ahaha, but that's just pessimistic. Dabble away el presidente

You know there's laws recently in place that make adherence to local state law over federal law a crime. doesn't bode well for Montana folk.

[Professor S]

Typhoid, I stated before nothing gives the administration the right to do what they did. Pres. Obama is not a ruler, he is a public servant, and swore to uphold the constitution when he was sworn in. He has not. We do not elect Kings, we elect Presidents who make up one third of Federal power (Executive, Legislative and Judicial).


Game, I don't think violations of the Constitution to be annoying, they are a breach of our most basic trust in our governing officials. You talk about those that think like me failing to trust this administration. I am not the one breaking the trust. If you can not trust that a government will abide by the laws that founded it and they swore to enforce, why should we trust them?


Seth, to answer your question, I am a proponent of the 2nd amendment, and I am a gun owner. I find all the bluster about the intention of the amendment to be a bit silly. If you read the correspondence of the founders it is quite obvious what they intended: that each citizen has the right, and some believed the duty, of gun ownership.

That said, I don't mind reasonable regulation if guns, like background checks. I am against prohibitive taxes on ammunition, however, as I believe that violates the intention of the 2nd amendment as it is a way to basically castrate the amendment.

Other than that Seth, you're on your own. This whole shadow government and detention center thing is a bit out of control, IMO. If the current administration continues in this direction, we won't have to sorry about them in 4 years. The American people may be optimists and even gullible at times, but they are not stupid sheep to be led to their own disenfranchisement. The tide will eventually turn if these actions by the administration become a pattern. I still think elections matter.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Game, I don't think violations of the Constitution to be annoying, they are a breach of our most basic trust in our governing officials. You talk about those that think like me failing to trust this administration. I am not the one breaking the trust. If you can not trust that a government will abide by the laws that founded it and they swore to enforce, why should we trust them?

Well, I can see you clearly make Obama the face of things that have been in the works for 50+ years. If you haven't learned by now, the Fed govt and the president do what they want to do once they're elected into office. Yes it sucks, but at this point the only thing you can do is hope for honestly and clarity on what is happening. And you can only hope that they have your best interest at heart and show constraint.

And they are not violating the constitution directly, unless the constitution is updated to include specific rules that goes against the fed's way of getting around the rules with money. Now a direct violation of the constitution that out weights every bail out that's ever happend is Federal Taxes, and the existence of the National Debt. Where are the threads where we're getting pissed about that and all the presidents supporting it?

To me, the conservitave side is very funny these days. They are actually brainwashing people into beliving that Obama is pushing for the will of the fed any more then Bush was, Clinton was, or first Bush was. Obama's actually trying to help us out financially, and is being VERY weak about it and not abusing his power even though he could easilly. The so called "abuses" of his power have all had our best intentions in mind.

Its not like Obama signed into the whole NAFTA thing and fucked the middle/lower class over for most jobs that were available. And its not like Obama torchured someone so that they can lie to us and send us into an endless war with no clear objectives. Its not like Obama created the national debt, or signed the Federal reserve act. Its not like Obama was the first person to do a bail out or stimulus, and just sent out the money blindly to rich people without any rules or regulations attached. Its not like Obama is the first president to embrace the Fed and not fight them.

You have to understand that Obama was given this deck of cards to play with, and he's playing it to the tune of trying to support the american people. That's all you can really ask for.

[Professor S]

So instead of arguing what I've presented, you've decided to defend the Administration by pointing out where others have failed. Repeating and magnifying mistakes does not suddenly make them correct decisions nor does it invalidate the document. Even George Washington broke with the Constitution once or twice, but yet it remains.

But lets take your argument at face value, even though I disagree with the premise of it, and point out the differences:

1) Speed. I've never seen so many breaches of constitutional intent (bordering on actual violations) in so fast a time. Even Bush didn't come into office and begin rewriting the founders immediately.

2) Scope. You can argue all you like about the patriot act and whether or not water boarding is torture, but the scope of what Pres. Obama is doing is about 1,000 time greater than what Bush ever did. Bush's accused violations and stretches of constitutional law were very specific, and tended to impact non-citizens and individuals the most. As for specific amendments violated in intent, you can only point to one: the 9th, and even that is a bit murky.

Pres. Obama is rewriting how the Federal government interacts with both business and states on a grand scale, and has trounced. So while tolerated some previous jockeying with constitutional intent, and disagreed with others, it's hard not to see such a difference between the two.

Also, Bush's violations of intent did not directly affect most people or the nature of our country's economic and governmental policy on a micro level. Pres. Obama's violations of intent have, and on a level that will affect everyone.

3) Intent. Pres. Obama has stated publicly and clearly before that he disagrees with the Constitution.

Ignore the biased commentary and concentrate on what he actually says in the first half of the interview. The redistribution part in the second half is a a discussion for another day.


So why do I have a reason to believe that the actions that he has taken, so very quickly, will cease in the future and not extend even further? He essentially dismisses the Constitution. The same one he agreed to uphold. And the disagreement isn't with specifics, it's with it's ACTUAL INTENT. So no, I don't expect any of his violations to be technical violations. He knows they'd be overturned by the court (until he can appoint new SC jurists). Instead he'll use money (and how he has control of money garnered by the legislative branch is another violation of intent) to beat local governments and businesses into submission.

Game, I have never doubted that Pres. Obama believes that what he is doing is right and honorable, but once again history shows that whenever power is taken from the people it leads to further suffering regardless of good intentions. And while they have the best of intentions, they suffer from the same diseases that all "greater good" politicians suffer from: Hubris and Ignorance.

Hubris in thinking they can make better decisions from afar than those close to and directly affected by societal issues (states, municipalities, businesses, individuals); and Ignorance in refusing to acknowledge how others have failed before them attempting to achieve the same goals the same way.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

1) Speed. I've never seen so many breaches of constitutional intent (bordering on actual violations) in so fast a time. Even Bush didn't come into office and begin rewriting the founders immediately.

Does it matter how fast its done? No, it just matters that its done. And please, can you give a more specific example of Obama directly breaking the law?

The problem started with the government borrowing money from people who are not in the governement. That is what should have been made illegal to start. when money is taken, all of a sudden whoever loaned it gains influence over the government's decisions. And this is an issue that's not new, nor created by Obama.

2) Scope. You can argue all you like about the patriot act and whether or not later boarding is torture, but the scope of what Pres. Obama is doing is about 1,000 time greater than what Bush ever did. Bush's accused violations and stretches of constitutional law were very specific, and tended to impact non-citizens and individuals the most. As for specific amendments violated in intent, you can only point to one: the 9th, and even that is a bit murky.

Pres. Obama is rewriting how the Federal government interacts with both business and states on a grand scale, and has trounced. So while tolerated some previous jockeying with constitutional intent, and disagreed with others, it's hard not to see such a difference between the two.

Also, Bush's violations of intent did not directly affect most people or the nature of our country's economic and governmental policy on a micro level. Pres. Obama's violations of intent have, and on a level that will affect everyone.

I disagree completly. The Iraq war was started because of "evidence" that was gained by torchure.. evidence that was obviously a lie. How many lives did that cost alone? How bad did that mess up america's reputation? And how much money did that cost? I mean, are you fucking kidding me?

The patriot act is just a small thing in comparision to water boarding.

There is NO comparision whatsoever between what Bush has done to this country and what Obama is doing so far. Bush has done FAR worse. Obama is is not destroying our reputation and unnessicarily killing thousands of people.

Game, I have never doubted that Pres. Obama believes that what he is doing is right and honorable, but once again history shows that whenever power is taken from the people it leads to further suffering regardless of good intentions. And while they have the best of intentions, they suffer from the same diseases that all "greater good" politicians suffer from: Hubris and Ignorance.

The power has been being taken from us slowly over the last 100 years. It just goes back what I first said.. The government has allowed money from other souces to influence us. You can make Obama the face of it all you want, but this is not a new issue, and he's not doing anything anyone else couldn't have and wouldn't have done.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Does it matter how fast its done? No, it just matters that its done. And please, can you give a more specific example of Obama directly breaking the law?

I stated in my arguments that Pres. Obama hasn't directly broken the law. We've already discussed that point. He's violated the intent, and used money to do so. Thats what I mean when I say "constitutional end around". The best the law could do would be to declare some of his actions as being unconstitutional (violation of the 10th amendment) by bringing the cases to the supreme court, but his actions are not directly against the law as there is no legal precedent. As a former constitutional lawyer, Pres. Obama should know better, but unfortunately he appears to be using his knowledge of the Constitution to work against it.

The problem started with the government borrowing money from people who are not in the governement. That is what should have been made illegal to start. when money is taken, all of a sudden whoever loaned it gains influence over the government's decisions. And this is an issue that's not new, nor created by Obama.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Can you explain further?

I disagree completly. The Iraq war was started because of "evidence" that was gained by torchure..

I don't remember that ever happening. I know we used water boarding to get information to use in Afghanistan and after we went to Iraq, but I don't that being the reason for the invasion. I think 9/11 was the obvious reason, and the terrorists weren't exactly hiding where they were.

Evidence that was obviously a lie.

No, the information gained from the interrogations actually proved to be quite useful. Most people in the CIA actually claim is saved many lives in the field. It was also only used on 3 people, all non-citizens and un-uniformed combatants. You are confusing the evidence that led to the Iraq war with the information gained by interrogation for use IN the war. And please don't call it torture. Water boarding instills panic, but does not cause pain or mutilation. If you must, call it "illegal" interrogation, but to call water boarding torture cheapens the word.

How many lives did that cost alone? How bad did that mess up america's reputation? And how much money did that cost? I mean, are you fucking kidding me?

If we want to get into arguments about numbers dying we can, but I don't remember this being the basis of the argument at hand. People die in war and the results of the interrogations didn't get us into the war. This is irrelevant to our argument, and we've already argued Iraq to death. Lets keep on point.

The patriot act is just a small thing in comparision to water boarding.

There is NO comparision whatsoever between what Bush has done to this country and what Obama is doing so far. Bush has done FAR worse. Obama is is not destroying our reputation and unnessicarily killing thousands of people.

Not constitutionally, and thats what we're talking about here: The executive branch stealing power from the states and other branches on a large scale. I didn't want to bring scope into the argument, but you did when you started splitting hairs with percentages and the like when discussing the stimulus money in California, so as I stated before I argued this point on your terms. In terms of scope of bending the constitution, Pres. Obama's actions have been far more vast, and impact all Americans and not a select few.

The power has been being taken from us slowly over the last 100 years. It just goes back what I first said.. The government has allowed money from other souces to influence us. You can make Obama the face of it all you want, but this is not a new issue, and he's not doing anything anyone else couldn't have and wouldn't have done.

And once again how does repeating the mistakes of others, but on a grander scale, make them suddenly acceptable? Doing more wrong makes it right? We're beginning to go in circles here, and much of the argument has gone off point, and horribly so as much of what you stated as your arguments for the evidence for Iraq are factually incorrect.

At this point I'm willing to let our arguments stand, unless you have something new to add (my first question).

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I stated in my arguments that Pres. Obama hasn't directly broken the law. We've already discussed that point. He's violated the intent, and used money to do so. Thats what I mean when I say "constitutional end around". The best the law could do would be to declare some of his actions as being unconstitutional (violation of the 10th amendment) by bringing the cases to the supreme court, but his actions are not directly against the law as there is no legal precedent. As a former constitutional lawyer, Pres. Obama should know better, but unfortunately he appears to be using his knowledge of the Constitution to work against it.

The problem is the constitution isn't a perfect document. He is directly following the laws that have been put into it, and you know it. If more rules needed to be added to the constitution or some clarification or changes made to adjust to the issues of this time... then I can agree with that. But don't go tossing out that what he's doing is unconstitutional if it isn't.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Can you explain further?

Sure I can, but first let me quote the next part.

I don't remember that ever happening. I know we used water boarding to get information to use in Afghanistan and after we went to Iraq, but I don't that being the reason for the invasion. I think 9/11 was the obvious reason, and the terrorists weren't exactly hiding where they were.

No, the information gained from the interrogations actually proved to be quite useful. Most people in the CIA actually claim is saved many lives in the field. It was also only used on 3 people, all non-citizens and un-uniformed combatants. You are confusing the evidence that led to the Iraq war with the information gained by interrogation for use IN the war. And please don't call it torture. Water boarding instills panic, but does not cause pain or mutilation. If you must, call it "illegal" interrogation, but to call water boarding torture cheapens the word.

This quote shows your complete lack of understanding about what lead up to the war in Iraq. Which I'm going to give you a pass on since I can just educate you on it now.

First read this site: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=13307

Bush and Cheney were pushing to find a way to link Iraq to 911. And they used waterboarding to do so. They pushed to get a FALSE confession about the link. You know with torture you kinda want to say anyhting to make it stop right?

So every single man woman and child who has died due that war, died because we put to use torture. Anyone who says otherwise is full of shit, or ignorant to the facts. If someone was waterboardng you to try to get you to link Elvis prestley to watergate, you'd tell them that.

Bottom line? TORTURE DOESN'T WORK, NEVER HAS, AND NEVER WILL.

Don't let the right wing brainwash you into thinking otherwise.

If we want to get into arguments about numbers dying we can, but I don't remember this being the basis of the argument at hand. People die in war and the results of the interrogations didn't get us into the war. This is irrelevant to our argument, and we've already argued Iraq to death. Lets keep on point.

As I pointed out above, yes it did.

Not constitutionally, and thats what we're talking about here: The executive branch stealing power from the states and other branches on a large scale. I didn't want to bring scope into the argument, but you did when you started splitting hairs with percentages and the like when discussing the stimulus money in California, so as I stated before I argued this point on your terms. In terms of scope of bending the constitution, Pres. Obama's actions have been far more vast, and impact all Americans and not a select few.

Once again, as I pointed out before.. it has not affected even half as many people in a negitive way.

And once again how does repeating the mistakes of others, but on a grander scale, make them suddenly acceptable? Doing more wrong makes it right? We're beginning to go in circles here, and much of the argument has gone off point, and horribly so as much of what you stated as your arguments for the evidence for Iraq are factually incorrect.

They are factually correct, once again, as stated above.

And as for repeating the same mistakes... at this point we're so deep into the pool of mistakes that I honestly don't belive it can be fixed. I don't want to go all conspiracy theory on you, but you probably need to research the federal reserve and the national debt. The fed at this point will always have the strongest influence.

I'm at work at the moment so I can't really sit and write out a whole essay, but when I have time tonight or tomorrow I'll explain how the government borrowing money from bankers was a big mistake.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by TheGame

The patriot act is just a small thing in comparision to water boarding.

No way man. Water boarding, as unethical and shitty as it is, doesn't infringe on what I believe are rights that everyone should be entitled to. Things like the Patriot Act lead to water boarding.

Anyway, this discussion shouldn't be about water boarding or torture or 9/11.