If you are not reading this book, you are a big dumb poop head.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Just three observations...
1) The definition of property. While I don't dispute that downloading is stealing, I will argue that defining what you stole becomes somewhat subjective.

Actually it's not subjective at all. There are two types of property, real and intellectual. Real is protected by patent law, and intelectual is protected by copyright law. It's been this way for a very long time. If you take someone else's intellectual property without payment or permission it is legal and moral theft. There is no grey area.

I am playing devil's advocate a bunch here. I hate downloading stuff, even music...(not so much movies because I go to the theaters like 3 times a week. Fuck the MPAA). Being poor and all I always try to support local stuff and lesser known artists/musicians/movies/whatever. I'd rather wire some money through Paypal to a struggling artist than steal their stuff....

Which brings me to points number 2 and 3. I cannot fault people for downloading Marvel or DC. Especially stuff that is out of print or hard to find. Much like my opinion about paying for the Beatles' music (that shit should be public domain by now! Fuck Paul McCartney! If you feel bad send Ringo a check!). But I do think it's kind of a good thing...making the artists step it up. Nowadays quality does help sell stuff.

No, I can fault people because they are taking what is not theirs. They are thieves and stealing is immoral and illegal. How can you NOT fault people for performing moral and legal wrongs? Any explanation for this behavior is simply an excuse to make one feel better about being a theif, not a rational argument.

Shut down the torrents? Good luck.

You think they can't or won't do it? There are already draconian ideas floating around world government. In the end, we will all end up getting punished for the immoral and illegal behavior of those who steal intellectual property.

I'm inclined to disagree though. I think the Internet is the next step in creativity and expression. It gives people with limited resources a public domain to become popular - IF they have quality to appeal. Since the creation of the Internet how many indie Comics and indie Musicians have you been turned on to? Without the Internet think about where you knowledge of comic culture or music culture would be.

I agree with all of this, but most of these creators OFFER their product for free to get exposure. There is a difference in offering something and someone taking it upon themelves to to TAKE it because they can.

And non of what ou have said has made a thief cease to be a thief.

I do agree with you though...support the artists. That's the bottom line and it should be.

Agreed. I just don't think that should be optional when it comes to acquiring the fruits of their labor.

And Teuth, I agree with most of what you've said. Still doesn't excuse theft. That said, the industry needs to make adjustments to respond to the current realities.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Actually it's not subjective at all. There are two types of property, real and intellectual. Real is protected by patent law, and intelectual is protected by copyright law. It's been this way for a very long time. If you take someone else's intellectual property without payment or permission it is legal and moral theft. There is no grey area.

I would say the grey area is my local library, where I can - for example - take Alan Moore's Watchmen off the shelf (without paying, and I assume without his permission) and read it. I can also rent new release movies on DVD, new release music, old music, old movies, magazines, newspapers, and books (of course). All for free. The library pays for the media once and thousands of people have free access. The catch is the time limit on the media; in this case, 3 weeks for books and 1 week for everything else. What would you say about people who download a Watchmen torrent and delete it after 3 weeks?

Originally Posted by Professor S

No, I can fault people because they are taking what is not theirs. They are thieves and stealing is immoral and illegal. How can you NOT fault people for performing moral and legal wrongs? Any explanation for this behavior is simply an excuse to make one feel better about being a theif, not a rational argument.

I suppose I am rationalizing a bit, aren't I? I griped to BaB about this though. DC and Marvel are behind in that they need to get with the times and come up with a way to distribute comics digitally. For a limited period of time Marvel had a deal with some company and they released digital copies of popular comics like X-Men and Spiderman. They released the copies on DVD with all the issues up to a certain point. And the price was a heck of a deal. Releasing comics digitally will increase sales and allow them to lower prices. And like Teuthida said, with the Kindle becoming popular you have a huge potential market to read comics. Also, comic book stores are somewhat intimidating whereas buying content online is not.

I also do believe in public domain. For instance, I think it's sort of insane that I need to pay money for sheet music for composers like Mozart. That guy has been dead for over 200 years, his music should be free minus the paper and ink. I would certainly pay for a performance of his music though. Likewise, once all the Beatles are dead and all the people who recorded their music are dead; their music should become public domain. Who gets the money for their recordings? Corporations? Family members mooching off of a legacy while contributing nothing useful to society?

Originally Posted by Professor S

You think they can't or won't do it? There are already draconian ideas floating around world government. In the end, we will all end up getting punished for the immoral and illegal behavior of those who steal intellectual property.

I don't think they can do it. At least not in our lifetime. I think they might try. I don't really know. I do know it is major corporations like the RIAA and MPAA who are trying to control it "draconian style" as you might say. For example, in my lifetime I have never heard a sane person say, "Close down the libraries! They distribute content for free!" I think most people acknowledge that libraries are non-profit organizations with the intent on intellectual distribution. Libraries don't inhibit the sales of books. Or even if they do, after hundreds of years of living with libraries we still have authors writing books. What's up with that?

[Angrist]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

The library pays for the media once and thousands of people have free access. ... What would you say about people who download a Watchmen torrent and delete it after 3 weeks?

Not trying to get too involved in here, but I think you answered your own question. At least the library paid for it. And they don't pay regular prices (I assume). You pay for your library card, the money goes to the library, which buys books and stuff, through which some money goes to the creators. You can't compare that with torrents where everybody just gets what he wants without paying anything to anyone.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Angrist

Not trying to get too involved in here, but I think you answered your own question. At least the library paid for it. And they don't pay regular prices (I assume). You pay for your library card, the money goes to the library, which buys books and stuff, through which some money goes to the creators. You can't compare that with torrents where everybody just gets what he wants without paying anything to anyone.

Actually, the original uploader pays for the content, be it the scanned comic or the ripped CD. The only thing the library might do better is buying in bulk: for example, my library buys multiple copies of popular media. However, the reason they buy multiple copies of popular media is because of the demand. Hundreds of more patrons want to check out that media.

And I do assume my library pays regular prices, although I could be wrong. Nowadays with Amazon I assume my library just buys stuff from major online retailers. Also I don't directly pay for a library card. Being a citizen of my city I get free access to my local library. Sure, some of the city's tax money goes towards the library but a lot of the money they raise is through donations. As I understand it this is how most public libraries work.

I forgot to add my Library charges a 1 dollar fee for movies. This fee is to pay for new and future movie purchases. This fee is not a royalty fee though.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Actually, the original uploader pays for the content, be it the scanned comic or the ripped CD. The only thing the library might do better is buying in bulk: for example, my library buys multiple copies of popular media. However, the reason they buy multiple copies of popular media is because of the demand. Hundreds of more patrons want to check out that media.

And I do assume my library pays regular prices, although I could be wrong. Nowadays with Amazon I assume my library just buys stuff from major online retailers. Also I don't directly pay for a library card. Being a citizen of my city I get free access to my local library. Sure, some of the city's tax money goes towards the library but a lot of the money they raise is through donations. As I understand it this is how most public libraries work.

I forgot to add my Library charges a 1 dollar fee for movies. This fee is to pay for new and future movie purchases. This fee is not a royalty fee though.

Like Angrist points out, Libraries either pay for the item or the item is given to them for no charge. In either case, the producer of the item has full knowledge of the exchange and has given permission for this to take place. The creator/owner is still the person who controls what happens to their content.

And there are a ton of laws that libraries must abide by:

http://www.librarylaw.com/

Not only that, but the product in most cases must be returned to the Library so that others may borrow it at another time, while most people that steal music/movies/games etc. on-line do so with no intention of returning or deleting the content. More than likely they'll burn it to disc to use later. In any case, it's irrelevant because they have no permission to do so.

A better example of digital sharing would be if Libraries didn't offer copies of books and movies, but instead offered printing presses, DVD and CD recorders so that their members could come in and print themselves any books, movies or cds they like with no worry about returning them. Something tells me that any library that did this would be shut down immediately.

The bottom line is: If the owner of the content hasn't given you permission to use it/download it/save it, you are stealing. It doesn't matter if you plan to do what you deem moral with the content, you took it upon yourself to take what is not yours without the permission of the owner. That is theft. It's not your decision to make because it's not your property.

If you take something that does not belong to you without permission, you are a thief. Quite honestly, this is not difficult. It is as simple as law gets, both human and natural.