Has anyone seen these polls?

[Vampyr]

I've been reading some of the arguments in another thread. The biggest negative I see is the supposed cost of switching to a public option for health care.

But as I stated before...America spends over $500 more per person on health care than other countries with a public option. Administrative costs for our health care are exorbitantly high compared to universal care systems.

I can't help but to think in the long run it would make sense financially to switch to a public option.

Another argument is that the government has traditionally messed up health care. What sort of reasoning is that? If other governments can do it, so can we.

Also, about the Republican plan: Yes, those are all great ideas. But they aren't a real plan for health care. They are auxiliary options which can be implemented alongside public health care.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I've been reading some of the arguments in another thread. The biggest negative I see is the supposed cost of switching to a public option for health care.

But as I stated before...America spends over $500 more per person on health care than other countries with a public option. Administrative costs for our health care are exorbitantly high compared to universal care systems.

I've already addressed the high-cost issue of health care in a previous thread. The exorbenate cost of our health services is, in fact, due to excessive government intervention. Please see my below quoted post:

" 1. Government intervention has historically raised health care costs, and will continue to do so if the government's role is increased (did you know that the government created today's insurance/HMO/PPO companies?).

Allow me to first use a few relevant and important statistical charts:



This chart depicts health care expenditures as percent of GDP and per capita. As you can see health care expenditures have nearly tripled as a percent of GDP since the 1960s, as well as the cost per capita of health care. This begs the question: what has lead to this enormous increase in the cost of health care?



This chart depicts average annual CPI change (%) by component. Once again we see the rise in medical care significantly outpacing the change of all other items. And, again, this begs the question, why?

For the answer to this question, I harkon back to my original point, that the rapid (and recent) rise in health care costs is primarily due to the advent of insurance/HMO/PPO companies, which were mandated by, and heavily regulated, by the government. In fact, the health insurance industry is perhaps the most heavily regulated industry in our country.

For an exact explanation of what HMO/PPO companies are and how they function, I would recommend outside sources, as I don’t want to go into too much detail concerning them. Suffice to say, they are a middle man, between you and your doctor. Middle men naturally raise the price of any good, as they have raised the price of health care.

Let’s consult one more chart, which depicts who is paying for health care costs:



Here again we see a stark contrast from the 1960s to present day. During the 1960s, the majority of health care was paid by out-of-pocket, and a small fraction was paid by the federal government. Present day, only a small fraction is paid by out-of-pocket, and payments by the federal government have quadrupled. I would, again, correlate this back to the rise of the HMO/PPO, as mandated by the federal government.

(These charts are derived from numbers provided by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.)"


Also, this essay by Dr. Yaron Brook of the Ayn Rand Institute briefly summarizes the government's role in driving up the cost of health care: http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?pa...s_iv_ctrl=2401

Another argument is that the government has traditionally messed up health care. What sort of reasoning is that? If other governments can do it, so can we.

Have you recently looked at France's marginal income tax rate? It is drastically higher than ours. That is why they are able to afford and subsidize their hybrid healthcare system. The French tax at least 40% of ones earnings if they earn above the equivalent of 95,000 dollars per year (Source: http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2005doc.nsf/LinkTo/NT00002E0A/$FILE/JT00187984.PDF).

[Professor S]

Uh oh, that article dares to state that healthcare isn't a "right". I think 1/2 the people stopped reading right there.

[Vampyr]

Bond: I'm not saying you're wrong, but isn't the key word here health care reform? Aren't the things you posted exactly what we want to change?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Bond: I'm not saying you're wrong, but isn't the key word here health care reform? Aren't the things you posted exactly what we want to change?

So you'll decrease costs by moving forward with more public intervention... the very reason why costs are so high.

What Bond is saying is that increase public spending/intervention has shown to do nothing but increase costs exponentially. Now there are a lot of lovely assumptions being made by those that are for public healthcare, most saying that they'll lower costs... but understand that there is no evidence that government intervention has ever done anything but increase costs and waste.

Meanwhile, evidence shows costs were lower per capita when the individual controlled most of their healthcare spending.

Now will it work this time? Well, thats what proponents of socialization have been hoping for 100 years... It hasn't worked out yet, and I have yet to see a reason to believe it will now.

[TheGame]

I've already went through it all with them before Vamp.. so I'm not interested in repeating myself over and over. You're dealing with people who don't exactly have sympathy for people who have issues with the current health insurance system, and you're dealing people who don't think that healthcare is a right.

So I guess we have to wait for them to lose their jobs and get sick, or wait for a close family memeber to get sick and be kicked off of their insurance for them to understand how broken the system is, and what is broken about it.

Anyway, to the only new thing:

Public Schools - I never said people talked about shutting down public schools, but A LOT of people want their money to follow their child to a private school due to the poor nature of many public schools, especially in inner cities. There was actually a huge debate about this from a voucher program in DC:

A lot of paranoid parents want their kids to go to private schools.. that's nothing new. That doesn't change the fact that the socialized schooling system does work, and gives the oppertunity to all children in this country to become educated. I don't have any stats to back myself up, but last I checked countries who have their school systems ran by the government fair a lot better then countries who have their school system ran by the private sector exclusively.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

I've already went through it all with them before Vamp.. so I'm not interested in repeating myself over and over. You're dealing with people who don't exactly have sympathy for people who have issues with the current health insurance system, and you're dealing people who don't think that healthcare is a right.

So I guess we have to wait for them to lose their jobs and get sick, or wait for a close family memeber to get sick and be kicked off of their insurance for them to understand how broken the system is, and what is broken about it.

Oh really? I had no health insurance for two years while going back to school, and was unemployed for 6 months at one point with no healthcare.

Also, I ushering my father-in-law through a heart transplant using government healthcare (veteran and disability).

I was there when they kicked him out of the hospital when he hit a certain $ amount, regardless of his complications.

I sat there while he laid curled up in a ball because his "health care by numbers" system had his multiple doctors assign him 10x the normal dose of prednazone. He turned into a giant fucking bruise.

I was there when he fell and his elbow turned to dust and his government run healthcare denied his the prep time he required for surgery (due to the anti-rejection medication) because he had received all the money the government allows for his heart transplant. So instead, the hospital falsified a morphine drip (creating extra charges for drugs he didn't need or use) and brought him in due to pain, instead of just prepping him like normal. More waste that everyone pays for.

We spent over a goddamn year trying to get his past all the red tape and closed doors and explain to people the spreadsheet that dictated his care was wrong.

I've been in THE SHIT. I've wallowed in it. I've seen government run healthcare up close and personal.

I've also seen my grandparents (only one still alive) receive excellent, sympathetic care through private insurance. The only horrible care I've ever seen is the government kind.

So I guess we have to wait for them to lose their jobs and get sick, or wait for a close family memeber to get sick and be kicked off of their insurance for them to understand how broken the system is, and what is broken about it.

So keep your ignorant and spiteful opinions to yourself.

A lot of paranoid parents want their kids to go to private schools.. that's nothing new. That doesn't change the fact that the socialized schooling system does work, and gives the oppertunity to all children in this country to become educated. I don't have any stats to back myself up, but last I checked countries who have their school systems ran by the government fair a lot better then countries who have their school system ran by the private sector exclusively.

I agree. I never said I was against public schooling, and I've stated numerous times it's probably the only socialized service in the US that works. Mainly because it's locally run allowing for better control and management. I think part of the problem with nationally controlled programs is the distance from the end user/recipient. Locally run social programs tend to be much more effectively executed because of the close proximity of the decision maker.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Oh really? I had no health insurance for two years while going back to school, and was unemployed for 6 months at one point with no healthcare.

Also, I ushering my father-in-law through a heart transplant using government healthcare (veteran and disability).

I was there when they kicked him out of the hospital when he hit a certain $ amount, regardless of his complications.

I sat there while he laid curled up in a ball because his "health care by numbers" system had his multiple doctors assign him 10x the normal dose of prednazone. He turned into a giant fucking bruise.

I was there when he fell and his elbow turned to dust and his government run healthcare denied his the prep time he required for surgery (due to the anti-rejection medication) because he had received all the money the government allows for his heart transplant. So instead, the hospital falsified a morphine drip (creating extra charges for drugs he didn't need or use) and brought him in due to pain, instead of just prepping him like normal. More waste that everyone pays for.

We spent over a goddamn year trying to get his past all the red tape and closed doors and explain to people the spreadsheet that dictated his care was wrong.

I've been in THE SHIT. I've wallowed in it. I've seen government run healthcare up close and personal.

I've also seen my grandparents (only one still alive) receive excellent, sympathetic care through private insurance. The only horrible care I've ever seen is the government kind.

Sorry to hear about your father in law. But I'm sure the story would have been a lot worse if private health insurance was his only option.