President Obama Healthcare Speech

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Uh, once again, no.

They're not refering directly to support of having a public option for health insurance. You can quote the same thing over and over as many times as you'd like, but its not going to change what it says.

Really?

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

How is this not specific enough for you? They say EXACTLY what the poll refers to, and that is THE BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION AS IT'S CENTERPIECE. There is NO AMBIGUITY IN THIS STATEMENT.

The reason I continue to re-post the obvious is that you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and instead spread nonsense. Also, you have yet to form a decent reponse to these reports, instead you create this hypothetical self-question and answering session built to give answers you'd like to hear. I will continue to re-post reason until you A) stop spreading falsehoods or B) actually accept reality.

My bet is on the former, not the latter.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

How is this not specific enough for you? They say EXACTLY what the poll refers to, and that is THE BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION AS IT'S CENTERPIECE. There is NO AMBIGUITY IN THIS STATEMENT.

The reason I continue to re-post the obvious is that you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and instead spread nonsense. I will continue to re-post reason until you A) stop spreading falsehoods or B) actually accept reality.

My bet is on the former, not the latter.

This poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. This is simply a fact, I can repeat it 50 more times if you wish.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

This poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. This is simply a fact, I can repeat it 50 more times if you wish.

Ok, so the poll didn't refer specifically to a A public option, but instead specifically to the BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION INCLUDED AS THE CENTERPIECE.

And you think that makes the poll invalid?

So you're literally arguing that the myth is more important than the reality. This is an amazing conversation that I don't want to stop. The farther we get into this the more insane the argument becomes.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

As for your continued claim that the question is about "how washington is handling it" please supply proof of the question. So far all I've found is evidence from Rasmussen that directly contradicts your assertion. The quote above is quite clear. That said, I haven't been able to find the exact questions asked. You seem sure about the questions, so please provide a link.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Ok, so the poll didn't refer specifically to a A public option, but instead specifically to the BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION INCLUDED AS THE CENTERPIECE.

And you think that makes the poll invalid?

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

As for your continued claim that the question is about "how washington is handling it" please supply proof of the question. So far all I've found is evidnce from Rasmussen that directly contradicts your assertion. Link please.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made? My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

Once again, we'll see if 'the people' are really opposed to the public option when the only poll that matters happens again.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

No, so far this is fact:

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

Until you prove otherwise. Please provide the link the question that asked about "how washington is handling it". I have yet to see this mysterious question.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made?

... with a public option as it's centerpiece... it's amazing that you're continuing with this, truly.

My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

Try again. This is fun.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

[TheGame]

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

your own quote:

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

Or to break it down:

I said

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option

Your quote:

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option

*coughs*

The second part of my quote:

it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now.

The second part of your quote:

it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

So once again:

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

So you can keep argueing against the facts all you want.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

The REALITY of the bill is that the public option was being, and still is being comprimised out of it. Which is why support for it is getting lower and lower.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

Exactly, which is why I said:

It boils down to them not wanting to fight against companies who pay them. That's why there's a civil war in the democratic party right now... Its good politics that the american people want vs good campaign donations. And as long as the republican party keeps looking and acting like morons in this situation, they're not scared of losing votes to them.. However, losing campaign contributions by going against private insurers is a bigger threat

and finally

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

once again

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

You're trying to make the connection that people are voting directly for if they would like to have a public option or not, which isn't the case in this poll. It wasn't the question that was asked, nor is it getting the same results it would have if the question didn't reference the weak sauce that has been being pulled over the last 5+ months.

It'd be like polling NBA fans on if they liked the washington wizards in the early 2000's vs asking if they liked Michael Jordan. And then turning around and saying "But Michael Jordan is the centerpiece of that team!!!!. You're manipulating the poll to fit your own definition.

It did not ask directly if people would like the public option. No matter how much you would like to twist the meaning.

[Professor S]

The BILL does not translate to "how washington is handling it". The bill is the reality of the public option in all it's form, substance and glory.

Your public option is a ghost. A mythical conceit without form or substance. It's a public option that has no downside because it's the perfection of the mind and doesn't care about the real world or unintended consequences. It is impossible to argue against such a beast, so I refuse to do so. I argue REALITY.

I am arguing reality and information based on people's reaction to that reality. You are arguing something that does not exist. You literally have no argument because you have nothing to argue besides an idea of what something SHOULD be but ISN'T.

Hence, people like the idea of "A" public option, the mythological ideal, but not "THE" public option, the reality of what it means once the ideal is attempted to be made reality.

This is REALITY

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

The overall picture remains one of stability. Today’s record low support for the plan of 41% is just a point lower than the results found twice before. With the exception of a slight bounce earlier this month following the president’s nationally televised speech to Congress to promote the plan, support for it has remained in the low-to-mid 40s since early July. During that same time period, opposition has generally stayed in the low-to-mid 50s.

You're refusal to accept it does not invalidate it. It just makes you seem unhinged.