Bin Laden Dead

[Teuthida]

^ Is that system for how money is distributed still in place?

Which also goes back to your earlier point about money not being an issue. In many countries there are state-funded free colleges. That makes a huuuuuge difference. Both my parents were from working class families and the only way my mother was able to go to college was because NYC's were free at the time (which isn't the case now). (My father's college was paid for by the Air Force.)

There's also the poor salary of teachers, or rather they go where the pay is better. For example I know one can make more teaching on Long Island than here in the city.

You might find this interesting. I went to this middle school which I only just learned was founded as a court-ordered experiment in racial integration.

And there's that whole deal with Texas dictating what goes into the country's text books which is messed up on a number of levels (and was discussed in an earlier thread). We can go into the Christian right hijacking science as well, so even a child who wants to learn might be getting the wrong information.

There are a ton of other factors too which could easily be improved (and would of course require more money), such as longer school days, or shorter vacations (kids forget so much over the summer break). There was an article about some Korean school in the NYTimes maybe a year or two ago. They spent about 12 hours at school 6 days a week. Now that's what I'm talking about.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

^ Is that system for how money is distributed still in place?

No child left behind changed it a bit, but yes, its generally how it works. I know if Philadelphia the highest dollar amount per child is spent in the worst districts.

Which also goes back to your earlier point about money not being an issue. In many countries there are state-funded free colleges. That makes a huuuuuge difference. Both my parents were from working class families and the only way my mother was able to go to college was because NYC's were free at the time (which isn't the case now). (My father's college was paid for by the Air Force.)

There's also the poor salary of teachers, or rather they go where the pay is better. For example I know one can make more teaching on Long Island than here in the city.

You might find this interesting. I went to this middle school which I only just learned was founded as a court-ordered experiment in racial integration.

And there's that whole deal with Texas dictating what goes into the country's text books which is messed up on a number of levels (and was discussed in an earlier thread). We can go into the Christian right hijacking science as well, so even a child who wants to learn might be getting the wrong information.

There are a ton of other factors too which could easily be improved (and would of course require more money), such as longer school days, or shorter vacations (kids forget so much over the summer break). There was an article about some Korean school in the NYTimes maybe a year or two ago. They spent about 12 hours at school 6 days a week. Now that's what I'm talking about.

Keep in mind, there is no such thing as "free" college, "free" healthcare, etc. Someone pays for it, and usually there is massive waste and debt involved. This is why New York no longer pays for college and part of the reason why California is in financial crisis. "Free" = unsustainable.

Most of what you describe is the result one the fatal flaw in the public school system: There is no choice. If you live in a certain district, your children go to a certain school. If you want options, you have to pay above what you are already paying in school taxes. More often you have to move to get out of them, and in the most poor areas (the areas that need choice the most) this is not a real possibility. The reality of no school choice affects the economy as well. A bad school poisons the real estate market around it, which poisons the businesses in the community, etc.

There is not a problem with the system. The system is the problem.

[Teuthida]

Except there is a choice. At least there is here in NYC. I would hope it's the case in other urban areas as well. Though I can't see it working elsewhere where things are more spread out.

Basically you have your zoned high school, with access to pretty much every other public school in NYC depending on your grades and/or a specialty test. So if you're poor and live in a lousy neighborhood you can still go to your school of choice or at least one a bit better than what you might be stuck with. A lot of normal zoned schools offer advanced programs too so that if you're a good student you can get a better education than the average curriculum of that school. You can also easily transfer to another as I did if you aren't satisfied where you first end up. Believe Earl did as well. So there are actually a ton of opportunities to move around. No one is stuck unless they're apathetic.

So high schools are not the problem. Not sure if one is stuck at their junior/middle school or if the one I went to was the only exception. I see that being a problem, yes.

Also since I've been in school, a lot more specialty schools (not vocational but rather an average school with a perk such as a great music program) have cropped up so that students with just average grades can get something more out of school than if they went to their zoned.

It would be interesting to see the numbers for this all this stuff. It might be a good model for more of the country to adopt. Believe this is pretty much how the school system works in Japan. Think they takes tests to determine what middle school they go to as well.

[Vampyr]

So what do you do if your parents work in the morning and can't take you to your school of choice?

School buses can only take you to the school in your district that you're supposed to go to.

I think a decent system would be to introduce government given vouchers for an all private school system, but again, how do you go about making sure every child has a fair chance to actually GET to the school?

[Teuthida]

Public transportation. Students are given a metrocard so they can travel for free on weekdays. For middle school those furthest away were picked up by school bus (I'm not aware of the district limitations) and those closer took public transportation. Actually, I know one or a couple of the specialized science high schools had school buses. Not sure what the deal was with that. But either way, the commute between the furthest points away from each other in the city are about two hours by public transportation. I actually didn't go to a school I got into at first because I didn't want to commute so far away. I ended up going a year later and it was a pain to get to, but quite doable. Got a lot of reading done on the train.

Again, I have no idea how this system would work in a more spread out area. Either your parents take you or a more complicated busing system is put into place.

[Vampyr]

Yeah, most places do not have public transportation.

[Professor S]

You are both thinking about this from the prism that education must be centrally controlled.

The internet has allowed amazing things to be done with home schooling and community schooling. Giant schools that treat students like cattle are part of the issue.

Part of the solution also needs to be removing the stigma that surround vocational school. College really isn't for everyone. Actually, since most people go to college and treat it like a vocational school, I'd say its not for MOST people.

Our entire educational system is locked in old thinking and idealistic fantasy, not pragmatism or results.