Religions

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

What I don't like about religion is how easy it is for psychopathic people to abuse their power. Religion is just another avenue to fame, wealth and power. It's really no different (in the end, except maybe the wealth part) than a CEO. CEOs tend to fondle employees and steal from the till much in the same way. They're also typically very shady characters. Obviously there are good citizens who are CEO's, and who are high-ranking religious members in their various religions, and I'm sure some people are both.

Okay, here's the problem with what you're saying. You seem to start off with the observation that religion is unique in that it is easy to abuse power, but then you draw a parallel to CEOs. I could draw the same parallel to politics. I'm sure other parallels could be drawn. I don't think religion is unique in that it is susceptible to corruption, indeed, I think many religions would readily admit this.

I don't believe the problem is religion, the problem is people. People are opportunists. We'll all make a little white lie if it's easier than telling the truth. We all might have different reasons for doing it, but we'll most likely all do it. Some people just don't have the switch that tells them "Baaaaaad moral ideeeea",and those people tend to worm their way into positions of power. Most likely because they lack morals and will just fuck other people over for their own gain.

This is the epitome of original sin -- that we are a fallen people, no?

What bugs me more and more is the rose-coloured glasses of tolerance. I don't like all of the negativity that goes against Islam. Islam isn't a bad religion. It's made from the same structural material western religions are. The "only" difference is that when the medieval ages ended, western religions tended to stop the whole "crusade" thing. I assume some Islamists (way back when) were a little upset that the Catholics and Christians decided to stroll into their land, so they just never removed the whole 'jihad' thing from their teachings. I believe technology is the great equalizer, though. Western influence is an inevitability, and I think that will lessen a lot of the cross-religion hate. Definitely won't end racism, though.

I would tend to disagree here. I think, in modern times, what most separates Christianity from Islam is the ability to integrate with democratic ideals. Christianity was able to do this, Islam, to date, has not. Catholics in particular have made major concessions in living under democracies (i.e. the Pope should dogmatically be the political and spiritual leader of the Catholic people). That is a significant hurdle for Islam to pass, and until it does, the Middle East will continue to lag behind America and Europe.

AND ANOTHER THING, wasn't Jesus a Jew? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jews born at the time of Jesus were short, hairy middle eastern men, right? So why is Jesus a 6 foot tall white guy with a groomed beard and flowing brown hair? The guy probably looked more like Saddam.

Jesus looks like a Westerner in Western cultures. Jesus looks different in other cultures. There's nothing wrong with that. C'mon now.

Secondly, being that Jesus was a Jew, and the son of God, this would make Judaism the one true religion, would it not? Because why would God send Jesus down to help people under the guise of a false religion? It stands to logical reason (I...guess) that the son of God would be whatever religion God approves of. God's not partying it up Buddhist-style but creates a Jewish son. If the guy can create anything and everything, why create a son that follows an improper religion.

Could you rephrase this? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I'd like to believe that if there IS a God, be it whatever gender, race, size, colour, animal, or religion he is, he wouldn't care what I do. He wouldn't care what I think. He'd just care if I'm happy with who I am, and if I'm nice to other people. If nothing else - and if there is a heaven - I'd like to assume that's the only prerequisite; how good of a person you are. Not what 2000 year old book you like to read.

Then you're a Deist -- that's legit.

[Typhoid]

I could draw the same parallel to politics. I'm sure other parallels could be drawn. I don't think religion is unique in that it is susceptible to corruption, indeed, I think many religions would readily admit this.

We're agreeing with each other, I believe. I wasn't saying religion is different than anything else, I was saying it's just as easily corruptible as everything and isn't exempt because of 'God', because corrupt people will always seek easy ways to prey on others. I only felt like drawing one comparison because it's what came to mind.

, in modern times, what most separates Christianity from Islam is the ability to integrate with democratic ideals.

That's why I believe technology is the great equalizer. North Americans don't need to "spread" Democracy anywhere. We just need to continue properly using Democracy, and let the rest of the world observe via the internet. Cultural Integration through technology. Then you get the Middle Eastern uprising.

Could you rephrase this? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I was poking fun at the whole "What is the one true religion?" thing. If you think about it, every religion created after Jesus came to Earth is moot - from a western religion point of view. Now, Jesus wasn't a Christian, nor a Catholic (Nor a Taoist, Buddhist or Hindu). So we can rule those five out of Heaven's Religion. Being that Jesus was Jewish, and the son of God (or not the son of God, but still a jew), we can deduce that since he came from heaven, he should be a member of the "true" religion; which would apparently be Judaism. Mystery solved.

[Bond]

I agree with Angrist in that a lot of these issues have more to do with a lack of knowledge of the historical underpinnings of Christianity than any kind of philosophical disagreement. Jesus fulfilled the original covenant with the Jews and started a new covenant after his death for Christians, for Jews, they are still waiting for the fulfillment of that initial covenant.

In regard to Juadism, it's a very interesting religion in that the spectrum of its sects is so broad: Orthodox, to Conservative, to Reformed / Liberal. In many ways each sect is an entirely different (and often opposite) way to practice the same religion.

[Typhoid]

The "Wasn't Jesus a Jew" stuff was much more joke than not. (I actually have read the Bible. Catholic mother and all, pulling the whole "You don't have to read it, but it'd make me happy if you did". :\ )

Like I said, I'm not actually against any religion. I'm all for something that gives people piece of mind and helps them be better people.

Hmmm...this is such a loaded paragraph, ripe for the picking. I don't know where to start! So can you elaborate on some of these fine points, lol.

Again, not 100% serious. When I get stoned and start to type, I wind up doing it as if I'm actually talking - I forget tone, and subtlty are entirely lost in text alone.

The frame of that paragraph I wrote was that I just think people who follow "Middle Eastern" religions tend to get a bad wrap just because of a select few people, and I don't find that fair at all. I think that'd be about as fair as only looking at the KKK then saying all Christians are like that, you know what I mean - I'm not a fan of things like that.

--
But it's not like I was trying to make this thread for only my opinions and whatnot. I actually want people to have a discussion about their real feelings on religion, however specific or non-specific. I just want to see if it's something people who believe in different things can calmly talk about without it turning into an insult-fest, or a closed-mind-off. (I'm not saying anyone here is like that, I'm just seeing if it can be done). I want to mediate the expansion of minds, and thoughts.

You know, maybe someone who is/isn't religious won't turn a switch and say "I now think the other side is correct!", that's not my goal. My goal is to see if people - whoever they are - are able to be open to the ideas of others, and not shoot them down immediately. I believe knowledge and conversation are the most important things we've got - and I think religion is something that not enough people calmly talk about (in general) without trying to either pump themselves up or knock another down. I think it should be as freely talked about (In a positive way) as anything else.