Religions

Vampyr · 11-30-2011, 01:14 PM

Eh, neither one of you are really answering my question.

I'm an atheist, and I'm also a very thankful person. I'm thankful for my family, for my friends, for my relative wealth, for my fiance, for my cat. I'm a very fortunate person, relative to others.

The point is that I'm not thankful to anyone in particular - I'm just in general thankful to have what I have, and to have been as fortunate as I have been. I'm kind to others and I donate to charity, so in that sense I'm using some of what I have to help others. All while being an atheist and not bringing a god into the equation.

I'm asking specifically, why do you thank god for what you have. Why do you think he expended his power to help you, but not use it to feed someone who is starving?

In a similar thought, most religious people say that praying to god helps to heal their loved ones who are sick. If that's true, why is god only capable of healing things that modern medicine is already capable of? For example, I've never seen or heard of anyone having their limbs regrow. However, if some experimental procedure were to be developed that had say, a 10% chance of regrowing someone's limbs, I'm sure religious people would start praying, and when it worked they would thank god.

Also, I see sporting events all the time where a player will have a great game and his or her team will win. At the end, they usually thank god.

How do they justify believing that god helped them win a football game, but he isn't saving starving people?

These kinds of religious people confuse me way more than deist like Professor S. While I think his belief in something where this no proof is quite strange, I think he views god more as a force of nature than a benevolent father figure.

Typhoid · 11-30-2011, 03:32 PM

I'll sort of add to Vamp's question, because this - too is something I've wanted to ask (it's practically the exact same thing, but I just can't ask my religious family, they're family after all).

I want to know how you cope with the idea that you pray to the God to heal your family that he made sick in the first place. Do you really believe God to be so fickle? If God made them sick, and God makes them healthy, why pray in the first place. It seems to me that God acts entirely randomly - kid on an anthill. Praying didn't stop the sickness from coming, and countless times praying hasn't healed anyone. In fact, everything people typically pray for is the result of God doing something terrible to their lives/to them/to a loved one. Unless you pray every night against every single disease you currently don't have in order to ensure you won't wake up tomorrow as a leper with polio and a sore throat.

And if God has a plan for everyone, and things are pre-determined (Destiny and all that), sin isn't really a big deal, is it? If life is pre-determined it was God's plan for those people to sin - or else they would have never sinned in the first place.

Life cannot be pre-determined if you have a choice, and if life is pre-determined, nothing you actually decide is a 'choice', it has all already been chosen for you by God.

KillerGremlin · 11-30-2011, 06:07 PM

I know why my cynical response is going to be...

I'm gonna see if I can find some journals that might support the observation.

KillerGremlin · 11-30-2011, 06:27 PM

I have a question too that you all can ponder while I ponder my previous comment.

Are all humans evil?

Let me expand. I have a fascination with serial killers and people with whacked out perceptions of reality. You might think that someone like John Wayne Gacy, who killed and raped 33 teenage boys is probably going to burn in Hell. After all...killing and raping 33 boys seems to go against one or two of the Ten Commandments. But, upon further analysis, we see some interesting things. For starters, John Wayne Gacy has serious brain damage. This is of the genetic variety, and is completely out of his control. This type of brain damage predispositions certain people to have strong antisocial tendencies. It's actually been shown in a number of studies that certain types of latent brain development in the Frontal Cortex is associated with behavior problems. Frontal Brain development happens last, and up until 25 years of age. That's why Teenagers act like dumbass fuckwits and adults have better behavior on average.

So, Gacy had a volatile brain chemistry to start with. Gacy's dad was also an alcoholic and abusive father. So he abused and beat Gacy. Now, it turns out when you have a ticking time bomb brain, being violently abused during childhood can trigger the "right stuff" to make you an antisocial serial killer. This in fact has been studied quite well. Google "serial killer brain studies" if you don't believe me.So all of a sudden, Gacy, this horrible serial killer...is just an unlucky soul who had the wrong brain type and got abused at a young age. I can empathize with him. How many religious folks are going to empathize with Gacy? That doesn't matter. That's a trick question. My real question is:

Does God empathize with Gacy?

Even if Gacy was an Atheist, didn't ask for forgiveness, and killed a bunch of people...he was basically dealt a fucked up biological hand from day one, and was placed into a fucked up living situation. This is no different than asking what happens to stillborn babies or children born with rare genetic defects who die at an early age. Or someone with down syndrome who will never comprehend religion, Original Sin, or forgiveness. Gacy is an extreme example. But you could argue that people who break the very moral codes outlined by the 10 Commandments are in fact not acting out on their own behalf.

Someone is going to chime in and say, "Gacy could have controlled his urges." And that type of judgmental statement typically shows a lack of empathy. It would be frowned upon in the professional Psychology, Psychiatric, and Medical field. To some degree we need to either decide that all humans are inherently evil - hence, Original Sin. Or the brain is like a car engine. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't: but it is always a product of the environment that it operates in.

I think there are profound implications in conversations and questions like these. There is also a "pushing people under the rug" mentality - even in fields like Psychology. From a moral standpoint: what do you do with a child molester or a serial killer? You can certainly extend some empathy towards them...but you cannot necessarily rehabilitate them. And again, I wonder...does Gacy go to Hell for being dealt a fucked hand? Did God deal him that fucked hand? Is he just a loophole to make us question faith? He certainly doesn't fit into the notion or concept of Original Sin, and free will, and choosing your own adventure in life.

I honestly have no answer to this. But the notion of Heaven and Hell bothers me. The notion the God might not be empathetic is concerning to me. Maybe he is extremely empathetic: maybe Gacy will be in the same part of heaven with all the stillborn babies and kids with early deaths.

Does anyone know how to address this answer from a religious standpoint? And please don't say something lame like "God has a plan."

I'm already a Level 14 Catholic Church-Goer.

edit: People don't have a lot of empathy towards child molesters or serial killers. I don't blame them. But I wonder if some of this lack of empathy is associated with strong Religious views or beliefs. Again...I feel like this might be worth looking into some research. I'm giving away too much, but this empathy stuff kind of ties into my previous comment.

double edit: there is a butt-load of empirical evidence and studies that basically prove the choices we make are the result of biological predispositions, and behavior experiences. This is called Epigenetics, and is the emerging popular thread in new Biology research. Some people develop in a way that they can make choices which fit the "moral constructs." Some people do not develop this way. It seems rational to extend empathy to the latter group knowing that your brain and behavior are really a product of your environment. Knowing these facts strongly challenges "free will," "Original Sin," "Judgement," and "Heaven and Hell." Is God a cool cat with lots of empathy, or the judgmental character as written in the Bible...?

TheGame · 11-30-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I'm asking specifically, why do you thank god for what you have. Why do you think he expended his power to help you, but not use it to feed someone who is starving?

I'm not sure how you'd like me to answer this question differently.

-Do you believe that having food would still be a blessing if it was readily available to everyone all the time?
-Do you think that being alive would be a blessing if people didn't die?
-Do you think that winning a football game would be a blessing if people didn't lose?

It's all about perception. If you're alive and/or got the chance to live, it's a blessing relative to never being born or dead. What you get above and beyond that is what you make of it. The people born into bad situations where they starve to death are and should be humbling, but at the same time.. if that's all they know, maybe they feel blessed by different things for different reasons that we take for granted.

KillerGremlin · 11-30-2011, 07:32 PM

Let me further expand again.

We need to make a philosophical distinction right away: Are there intrinsic and natural "morals." Assuming, hypothetically, there in no religion, no God, no divinity: are there natural moral rules?

I would argue yes. Life is intrinsic to living things. Therefore, killing a living thing compromises the natural right to life.

Let's assume that killing is morally objectionable and should be taken seriously. Let's also ignore killing for food and war. Remember, this is hypothetical.

I strongly oppose the 10 Commandments because they do not stand up to the empirical weight that humans do not have free will. Let me say outright, most people have a set of instilled rational beliefs, and "know" better than to act against them. People who fit into "normal" social constructs don't kill other people. Now, there are mounds and mounds of empirical evidence that suggest that "normal" people have a set of genetic predispositions and behavior predispositions. Odds are most people here don't have Gacy's brain damage. Odds are most people here weren't abused in such a way that has caused them to feel the need, or actually act on the urge to kill another human being.

Now, some of us have had sex, stolen, done drugs, or done other things that question the 10 Commandments. But I feel like this is more of a reflection on the aging church policies. None of us here have killed people (ignoring food and war), and I would attribute that to normal social-psycho upbringings.

Time after time, empirical after empirical after empirical study has shown that people do not control their choices outside of their "normal" sense of perception. Heroin addicts cannot control their addiction without tons of support, medication, and help. Food acts cannot control eating. People with anxiety or schizophrenia cannot put a lens of "normal" perception over their own skewed view. And even using the phrase "skewed view" makes me judgmental. Psychology and medicine has a holistic and humanistic philosophy, and has had that view for a long time. Psychology isn't about treating someone, it is about making their life comfortable. If you have anxiety, but live a comfortable life: then you are not abnormal. We would define "abnormal" as disruptive to daily functioning and healthy living. And even that is a tough philosophical point in medicine.

The brain in a pure sense is a clean slate. We add genetics into the equation and the brain now has certain characteristics that will influence development. You add behavior and those behaviors influence the outcome of the individual. My own behaviors, perceptions, and experiences are the result of my genetics, and the experiences I have had in my life. If you changed just a few external stimuli or experiences, I may never have been the video game loving person I am today. If you change a few experiences and stimuli, John Wayne Gacy may not have raped and killed 33 teenagers.

The point is, I reject the traditional notion of free will for the sound empirical reality which is that we are largely not in control of our behaviors. I would argue by extension: my decision to fit into society's "normal moral construct" and not kill people is the result of a fairly normal upbringing. There are "standards" and "practices" to develop normal humans. There is a sensitive window to learn language, for example. We send children to school. We tell parents not to rape or abuse their kids. We try to control for behavior; so much so we would punish a parent molesting their child, because it goes against the "normal construct" we have established in society. Some parents who do a perfect job raising their child still have issues: maybe it is genetics, maybe it is external stimuli or experiences from another source. The point is, it is something.

I don't make the choice to not kill people because I have some sort of moral compass. I make the choice not to kill people because I have a complex view and understanding, as imparted on me from other people, my upbringing, my genetic backdrop, and everything else that I have experienced up until this point.

I don't believe you could honestly hold someone to 10 Commandments unless you were a judgmental, non-loving, non-empathetic God. Understanding what we know about development and the brain today, we can see that many people make the choices they make due to their environmental circumstances. And when I say "environmental circumstances," I refer to the Epigenetic realization that your brain and YOU are made up of experiences and neural paths.

To place judgement on someone who was abused, or is genetically susceptible to eating too much sugar or using heroin, is just shallow and uneducated.

On a slightly related note, I feel like there is either a lack of empathy in posts in this thread...or a deflection of empathy. Forwarding would-be-empathy to religion doesn't help make the world a better place.

KillerGremlin · 11-30-2011, 07:46 PM

Basically, a human brain is a box of legos.

Through thousands of years of evolution and social interaction, humans have a set of instructions that are ideal.

Ideally, you build a lego brain so that it doesn't kill people, molest children, or whatever.

Sometimes, genetics throws you a curve ball and you don't have enough legos to make a brain that perceives the same world we do where killing is wrong.

Sometimes, the person building the lego brain does a very poor job and doesn't follow the instructions.

Both situations often result in a lego brain with a "distorted perception" compared to the "normal perception" we all follow. When that lego brain rapes and kills 33 boys, causes the Holocaust, or whatever:

Does that brain go to Hell?

If you answer yes, there might be a good chance your God lacks empathy and understanding.

Edit: A final disclaimer to avoid confusion.

I don't empathize with the monster that John Wayne Gacy became. The man who raped and killed kids? I can't empathize with that monster. I'm empathetic to Gacy, the human, who was abused as a child and had the unfortunate set of genetic traits that crippled his brain. I'm empathetic and feel VERY SORRY about the entire situation. I literally feel emotionally sick when I think about his victims. It's a tragedy that his father, the alcoholic and abuser, was also likely abused. It's a horrible situation all around, with no winners. My view, which I find is shared and common with some of the most decent people I have ever met, may or may not align with the Biblical view. Which is why I raise this issue.

KillerGremlin · 11-30-2011, 08:22 PM

Let's talk about the lego box. There is a very sensitive window in early childhood development where children can learn social behaviors and language. If you miss that window, the kid is absolutely fucked. The reason is that the neural networks (remember...the brain develops til 25, but the bulk of the development happens EARLIER rather than LATER) slow their development.

The genetics that are in place to allow humans to learn language and social interactions so easily is the result of evolution. It's crazy fucking stuff, but it is also totally awesome.

These same principles apply to other areas of development. If you abuse a young child? They grow up to have problems. If you smoke during pregnancy? You cause genetic damage which results in development issues.

To assert that a Feral Child has any free will or "Original Sin" or anything like that...well...I don't know. Can someone enlighten me?

Vampyr · 11-30-2011, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGame

I'm not sure how you'd like me to answer this question differently.

-Do you believe that having food would still be a blessing if it was readily available to everyone all the time?
-Do you think that being alive would be a blessing if people didn't die?
-Do you think that winning a football game would be a blessing if people didn't lose?

It's all about perception. If you're alive and/or got the chance to live, it's a blessing relative to never being born or dead. What you get above and beyond that is what you make of it. The people born into bad situations where they starve to death are and should be humbling, but at the same time.. if that's all they know, maybe they feel blessed by different things for different reasons that we take for granted.

We aren't talking about the same things. I think you think I'm saying no one should ever be sad because there is always someone more sad, and no one should be happy because there is always someone more happy.

I'm not saying that. I'm not talking about tiers of happiness.

I'm saying that there is hunger in the world, and that people die from it. I don't think you're fully comprehending how painful that would be - to starve to death. And it happens. Maybe these people feel blessed for some things, but I doubt the children who die this way do. I know when I was a child I never really stopped to think "wow, I'm really blessed."

I'm just saying that these atrocious things happen, and there is no god in any of it - at least not a kind god. Then you have these religious people in first world countries who talk about how god has entered their lives and made their lives better.

Now THAT is a matter of perspective. Their lives are good because they lived in a developed nation and had good opportunities, not because of an act of god. Why do they give credit to him, when it's easy to see that it's just the natural entropy of the universe, that some people are very lucky and some are very unlucky?

@KG: yeah, I pretty much agree with all of that. I don't think it was directed at me, probably more at Typhoid, but yeah.

TheGame · 11-30-2011, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

We aren't talking about the same things. I think you think I'm saying no one should ever be sad because there is always someone more sad, and no one should be happy because there is always someone more happy.

I'm not saying that. I'm not talking about tiers of happiness.

I'm saying that there is hunger in the world, and that people die from it. I don't think you're fully comprehending how painful that would be - to starve to death. And it happens. Maybe these people feel blessed for some things, but I doubt the children who die this way do. I know when I was a child I never really stopped to think "wow, I'm really blessed."

I'm just saying that these atrocious things happen, and there is no god in any of it - at least not a kind god. Then you have these religious people in first world countries who talk about how god has entered their lives and made their lives better.

Now THAT is a matter of perspective. Their lives are good because they lived in a developed nation and had good opportunities, not because of an act of god. Why do they give credit to him, when it's easy to see that it's just the natural entropy of the universe, that some people are very lucky and some are very unlucky?

@KG: yeah, I pretty much agree with all of that. I don't think it was directed at me, probably more at Typhoid, but yeah.

I understand what you're saying, but I for one would rather be born and die from starvation then to not have lived at all. Life is a gift. Your original question was asking how it's rationalized, and I'm telling you how it is rationalized.

For example... I hate to use myself as an example, but my little brother died form cancer at the age of 2. Do I think it's unfair/sad that he never got the chance to live a normal life? Of course I do. If I could go back in time and stop him from existing so he wouldn't have to deal with the cancer? NO.

Even though he had a short life he blessed a lot of people and brought our family back together. He helped me put my own life into perspective at an early age, and appriciate the time that I do have here because it's not promised. Even if you're born in te NA or Africa, you aren't promised a longer life or a less painful death at all. Nor are you promised a happier life.

That's why there are wealthy people out there killing themselves, and poor people loving life.

So yes, when I see a poor person that I can help, I help them. When I see people dying from starvation, it makes me upset. But at the same time, it makes me remember how blessed I am to even be here and have the chance to experience life. I could have died just as quick or quicker then anyone who ever lived.

The less fortunate should create humility for you. People aren't at church going "Thank God that I have a better life then a few billion people", It's more like "Thank you for letting me be here and giving my this gift of life, because I didn't have to be here and didn't have to have this gift."

Then we can get into prayer, which is basically wishing well for other people that you can't help, and thanking god for what you have already recieved. You can pray for yourself to succeed at something, or to make it through something, but my personal preference is to wish the best for others. Usually if I'm praying for myself, I'm praying to have a good outlook regardless of how things turn out, and I leave things in God's hands.

See now I'm just preaching to GT. lol

I gotta go get my haircut.

KG Typhoid, I'm not ignoring you guys, just too much to read. I'ma have more time to look tonight.