Ask a Catholic

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by The Germanator

This is the kind of thing I find offensive as a non-religious person. You're basically asking people to repress their natural feelings and live a lie because those feelings or acts would be "sinful." How that isn't construed as "anti-gay" is beyond me. "I'm not anti-you, per-se, but you're a sinner and you're going to Hell." Very accepting...

I feel like this point is always made the most clear when you ask yourself, as a straight person, "when did I decide to be straight?" There was no decision, it's just who you are, and you're not a sinner for it, so why should other people?

You'll never be able to convince me that the logic of that is anyway morally acceptable...but I guess you don't have to, I'll never be a Catholic.

First, a clarification: i never said anyone was going to hell. You won't hear me say that and you won't hear the Catholic Church proclaim that anyone is going to hell. Only God knows our hearts and therefore, only God can know if our sins merit eternal damnation.

Secondly, I'm sorry you find my religious beliefs offensive. However, if you are a non-believer, i don't see why it should matter. If my God doesn't exist, then surely it won't matter if he considers homosexual acts to be sinful, right?

You seem to ask how we can say we are not against the person if we are against the act? There is an old saying: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." We all sin. Does that mean we are not desearving of love? No. You can love someone without approving of their actions.

If I understand your argument correctly, then you are saying that because people with homosexual attractions did not decide to be that way, their actions cannot be sinful. However, this is true for all sinners and all sin. Non of us chose to be predisposed to sin, but the actions are sinful regardless and we are still responsible for them.

Let me give a few examples. If it is in someone's nature to lie, they are still sinning by lying even though they may be tempted to do so more than another person. Another example would be that of a pedophile or someone who is incestuous. Not all of us have an attraction to underage individuals or to our relatives, does that mean it is any less of a sin for those that do? We are all given crosses to bear.

The only difference here is that society has decided that homosexual acts are no longer sinful. However, God doesn't change with the world. The Belief that homosexual acts are sinful stretches all the way to the Jews in the Old Testament and has been held continuously since. The Church's teaching on this will not change. If you don't believe it, that's up to you, but the teaching doesn't change.

Finally, I'd like to propose a question to you. You state quite clearly that you are not a believer. Would you mind elaborating as to why you are not? Keep in mind that I will of course want to challenge your beliefs, so if you don't want to respond for that reason, I understand. However, I believe it is good that we have our beliefs challenged once in a while. Thank you for challenging my beliefs.

[Vampyr]

What's the Catholic/Christian view on doubt? Do you need 100% faith in God and the Bible to go to Heaven? What if you're only 80% sure, but there's a nagging thought that you could be wrong?

I've always wondered how people of any religion, not just Christianity, could have 100% faith, given that you are probably Catholic just because of the geographical region in which you were born and what religion the rest of your family has.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

What's the Catholic/Christian view on doubt? Do you need 100% faith in God and the Bible to go to Heaven? What if you're only 80% sure, but there's a nagging thought that you could be wrong?

I've always wondered how people of any religion, not just Christianity, could have 100% faith, given that you are probably Catholic just because of the geographical region in which you were born and what religion the rest of your family has.

I would say that the percentage of faith is not important, just that you have faith enough to believe. We all have doubts, even the most faithful of us. That's part of being human and I would think it would be impossible not to have doubt when you are dealing with something as important as the afterlife. Doubt that is involuntary such as a hesitation in believing is not sinful. Doubt that is voluntary and is a willing denial of what God has revealed is a grave matter.

Faith is holding on to your beliefs despite these involuntary doubts. Our doubts arrise from changing moods. There are some days when faith is easy and there are other days when it is hard but when shouldn't change our beliefs every time our feelings fluctuate.

As to your second statement, I've wondered that myself. It has been especially relavent to my mind because I was adopted. I wonder sometimes what religion I would have been raised in if I was raised by my biological parents. Since I don't know them, I don't have the answer.

I'd like to think that I would have found Catholicism even if I wasn't raised in it. We all search for truth and I believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of that truth. That's why I pprofess the faith I do. I have examined it and continue to do so on a daily basis and each day reaffirm my belief.

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by jeepnut

However, if you are a non-believer, i don't see why it should matter. If my God doesn't exist, then surely it won't matter if he considers homosexual acts to be sinful, right?

Not to speak for Germy, but it matters to me because people like you believe such things are sinful.

The only difference here is that society has decided that homosexual acts are no longer sinful. However, God doesn't change with the world. The Belief that homosexual acts are sinful stretches all the way to the Jews in the Old Testament and has been held continuously since. The Church's teaching on this will not change. If you don't believe it, that's up to you, but the teaching doesn't change.

You probably just summed up most of the problems I have with religion. It doesn't change with the times. You're following rules from over a thousand years ago.

It's like believing in cooties when you're a kid. Then you grow up and mature and realize there's no such thing. You don't continue to avoid girls for fear of cooties because of the rules your five year old self followed.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Not to speak for Germy, but it matters to me because people like you believe such things are sinful.

Why does it bother you? Is it that you believe that sin = hate? That has never been the teaching of the Church. We are all sinners and we are all created in the image and likeness of God. We have no more right to hate others for their sin than we do to hate ourselves for our own sin.

Furthermore, why this sin in particular? Does is bother you that any other acts are considered sins or just homosexual acts?

Originally Posted by Teuthida

You probably just summed up most of the problems I have with religion. It doesn't change with the times. You're following rules from over a thousand years ago.

It's like believing in cooties when you're a kid. Then you grow up and mature and realize there's no such thing. You don't continue to avoid girls for fear of cooties because of the rules your five year old self followed.

Do you still believe that you should look both ways before crossing the street? If something is true, it doesn't change with the times.

Or are you proposing a religion in which truth is relative and changes with the opinions of its believers? A religion whose God is shaped by those who believe in him? I would find such a religion to be very difficult to believe in.

[The Germanator]

Originally Posted by jeepnut

However, if you are a non-believer, i don't see why it should matter. If my God doesn't exist, then surely it won't matter if he considers homosexual acts to be sinful, right?

The only difference here is that society has decided that homosexual acts are no longer sinful. However, God doesn't change with the world. The Belief that homosexual acts are sinful stretches all the way to the Jews in the Old Testament and has been held continuously since. The Church's teaching on this will not change. If you don't believe it, that's up to you, but the teaching doesn't change.

Finally, I'd like to propose a question to you. You state quite clearly that you are not a believer. Would you mind elaborating as to why you are not? Keep in mind that I will of course want to challenge your beliefs, so if you don't want to respond for that reason, I understand. However, I believe it is good that we have our beliefs challenged once in a while. Thank you for challenging my beliefs.

As Teuthida said, it does matter and it still disturbs me that Catholic believers think that way... but as you said, you don't change with the times. I can "respect" your faith and belief in that regard I suppose, but it doesn't change the fact that I think it's morally and ethically backwards and discriminatory, but you probably think the same thing of me as a non-believer!

As for why I'm a non-believer...Well, I've never totally categorized myself that way. I'd describe myself as agnostic. Basically, with my expected 78 years on this planet, I don't think it's logical to spend time trying to prove or disprove something that we'll never have an answer to. It can be hard enough to get through the days sometimes, and I'd rather spend them being and caring for the physical humans (or animals) that I know in my life rather than worry about what happens when I cease to exist.

If the Golden rule came from Christianity (did it? I honestly have no idea), then that's an idea I can get behind, but everything else I can do without. I just think there's a common societal morality that I have, and I think I'm a pretty kind and decent person, but I don't think I need religion to tell me to be that way.

I think that's why selfish, horribly aggressive drivers maybe annoy me more than anything in the world...

Anyway, I could ramble for a while, but that's contrary to my point, because I find arguing about religion to be pointless in my case....unless it's helping shape the policies of my government...which is a whole other major problem.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by The Germanator

As Teuthida said, it does matter and it still disturbs me that Catholic believers think that way... but as you said, you don't change with the times. I can "respect" your faith and belief in that regard I suppose, but it doesn't change the fact that I think it's morally and ethically backwards and discriminatory, but you probably think the same thing of me as a non-believer!

As for why I'm a non-believer...Well, I've never totally categorized myself that way. I'd describe myself as agnostic. Basically, with my expected 78 years on this planet, I don't think it's logical to spend time trying to prove or disprove something that we'll never have an answer to. It can be hard enough to get through the days sometimes, and I'd rather spend them being and caring for the physical humans (or animals) that I know in my life rather than worry about what happens when I cease to exist.

If the Golden rule came from Christianity (did it? I honestly have no idea), then that's an idea I can get behind, but everything else I can do without. I just think there's a common societal morality that I have, and I think I'm a pretty kind and decent person, but I don't think I need religion to tell me to be that way.

I think that's why selfish, horribly aggressive drivers maybe annoy me more than anything in the world...

Anyway, I could ramble for a while, but that's contrary to my point, because I find arguing about religion to be pointless in my case....unless it's helping shape the policies of my government...which is a whole other major problem.

I don't think it's discriminatory to think an act is not sinful just as I don't think that calling an act sinful is discriminatory. The venerable Fulton Sheen said two things that apply well here:

The first: "Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right."

The second: “America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance-it is not. It is suffering from tolerance. Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.”

“Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the laboratory.

Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability.”

In other words, opinions have nothing to do with moral principles and to hate the act of sinning does not say that the one who sins is also hated. If that were true, we would all be hated because we are all sinners!

So I will ask again the question that no one seems to be able to answer. Why is it in our society wrong to say that homosexual acts are sinful? Keep in mind, what a person does has nothing to do with who that person is.

Wow, that was a lot of words for a simple point, but I like those quotes.

As far as your beliefs, you say that it's not worth your time to worry about something we don't have the answer to. I would respond, you don't have to! We already know the answer which is God is real and God loves us!

Caring for your fellow man is great and is a central aspect of Christianity, but we teach that this life is but a shadow of the next. Is not etrnal life worth the effort in this one?

The Golden Rule did not come from Christianity. Jesus did preach something similar, but with a key difference. He said: "Love your neighbor as yourself" which he said is the second greatest commandment. The first is to love God. To love another is to desire the happiness of that individual. By happiness, I mean true happiness, not whatever makes that person temporarily happy, but that which fulfills that person and leads to true joy.

[Teuthida]

It's not your belief in God that bothers me. It's your belief that the stuff in the Bible comes from God that bothers me. There is no proof for either. Isn't it far more logical to believe some guys from the past just wrote down some stories and laws and through time people took it to be more and more serious?

The story of Jesus is nothing new. It's a resurrection myth. Why do you believe in him over Osiris? Because that was how you were raised, not because it's true.

In parts of Africa, albinos are killed for their magical properties. Believing albinos are magical is no different than believing gays are sinful. But no doubt only one of those seems silly to you. Why? I see no difference...well, except you don't go around killing gay people for witchcraft. Just beat them up in mobs. That's a good reason why it's stupid to treat it as a sin. You then get more people hating them. Hate is taught, just as religion is.

Vampyr made a great point. Why not hate people with a certain skin color or eye color or left handed?

Left handedness apparently occurs with the same frequency as homosexuality. Hell, sinister means left in Latin. Do you look down on left handed people as well?

Found several bits just now about it being a sin in the Bible, and then plenty of Christians saying that the interpretation is off and it doesn't in fact mean that. I see no difference with the gay thing...or most things in the Bible. You're picking what to believe...even if you don't believe that.

That is why belief over facts is dangerous. You can believe anything.

Anyway it goes you're considering something a sin someone has no control over. Or is it only the act?

The only reason I can fathom why anyone would be against homosexuality is that it doesn't produce offspring. And you went into your whole notion of the purpose of sex and why you don't wear a rubber. If a gay person doesn't have sex which is what you consider the sin, they're not going to go "well since that's off the table, I might as well go make babies with this other person I have no sexual attraction to" Shouldn't not having sex be the sin?

It used to be a numbers game. 2000 years ago the human population was 300,000 million. Of course procreation would be seen as a good thing. Especially when those new people would be indoctrinated into your faith. Far easiest to make whoopie than convert people. Today there are 7 billion people. The world would be far better off with more "sinful" people not procreating.

So I will ask again the question that no one seems to be able to answer. Why is it in our society wrong to say that homosexual acts are sinful? Keep in mind, what a person does has nothing to do with who that person is.

Simple answer? Because it's stupid. I believe people who have a second toe longer than their big toe to be sinful. If you walk around on feet like that you're committing a sin. To be free from sin you must stay seated.

That makes just as much sense to me as your deal with homosexuality.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

It's not your belief in God that bothers me. It's your belief that the stuff in the Bible comes from God that bothers me. There is no proof for either. Isn't it far more logical to believe some guys from the past just wrote down some stories and laws and through time people took it to be more and more serious?

If you look at the evidence, I would argue that it is far more logical to believe the opposite. The Gospel writers take great pains to assure their readers that they are writing about historical people and events. Unless there is proof that the subjects of these did not exist, it is logical to believe they were telling the truth.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

The story of Jesus is nothing new. It's a resurrection myth. Why do you believe in him over Osiris? Because that was how you were raised, not because it's true.

I agree that the biggest reason I'm a Christian is because I was raised that way. That's probably true for any person who was born into the faith. However, there is a strong historical basis for Jesus, unlike Osiris. Before I go more deeply into it however, what are your reasons for believing Jesus is a resurrection myth? Do you have solid evidence or is that just the way you were raised/learned from experience? It may help our debate if I address your specific reasons for doubt.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

In parts of Africa, albinos are killed for their magical properties. Believing albinos are magical is no different than believing gays are sinful. But no doubt only one of those seems silly to you. Why? I see no difference...well, except you don't go around killing gay people for witchcraft. Just beat them up in mobs. That's a good reason why it's stupid to treat it as a sin. You then get more people hating them. Hate is taught, just as religion is.

Vampyr made a great point. Why not hate people with a certain skin color or eye color or left handed?

Left handedness apparently occurs with the same frequency as homosexuality. Hell, sinister means left in Latin. Do you look down on left handed people as well?

OK. In order to have a productive debate, I think we need some clarification. I've got about three people saying that I believe being gay is a sin and is comparable to other immutable characteristics being considered sinful. I have made every effort to make sure that I did not say this because that is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Because of this, I would like to restate two points. Please acknowledge these points so we can resume productive discussion:

1. Having same sex attraction is not a sin.

2. Engaging in homosexual acts is not the same as having same sex attraction. An act you freely choose is not an immutable characteristic and as such, it cannot be compared to calling left-handedness, race, gender, or any other immutable characteristic sinful.

I'm not sure how I can be any clearer.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Found several bits just now about it being a sin in the Bible, and then plenty of Christians saying that the interpretation is off and it doesn't in fact mean that. I see no difference with the gay thing...or most things in the Bible. You're picking what to believe...even if you don't believe that.

Can you post the specific bits you are referencing?

Originally Posted by Teuthida

That is why belief over facts is dangerous. You can believe anything.

Are you saying you live your life solely on facts and not on belief? We all rely on belief. If you read a sign that says "DANGER: Gasoline, do not consume" do you believe it? Or do you need to test the contents to be sure it is gasoline before you will believe that you shouldn't consume it?

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Anyway it goes you're considering something a sin someone has no control over. Or is it only the act?

As I restated above, only the act is sinful. Everyone who is of sound mind and body has control over their actions.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

The only reason I can fathom why anyone would be against homosexuality is that it doesn't produce offspring. And you went into your whole notion of the purpose of sex and why you don't wear a rubber. If a gay person doesn't have sex which is what you consider the sin, they're not going to go "well since that's off the table, I might as well go make babies with this other person I have no sexual attraction to" Shouldn't not having sex be the sin?

It used to be a numbers game. 2000 years ago the human population was 300,000 million. Of course procreation would be seen as a good thing. Especially when those new people would be indoctrinated into your faith. Far easiest to make whoopie than convert people. Today there are 7 billion people. The world would be far better off with more "sinful" people not procreating.

Not having sex is not the sin. You forget that I belong to a faith where the vast majority of the priests are celibate. Anyway, sex without the possibility of procreation is using another human being for sexual gratification. That is the sin. Our fellow human beings are not objects for our personal use, but the image and likeness of God.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Simple answer? Because it's stupid. I believe people who have a second toe longer than their big toe to be sinful. If you walk around on feet like that you're committing a sin. To be free from sin you must stay seated.

That makes just as much sense to me as your deal with homosexuality.

See my two bolded points above.