Religion

[NYGiant]

Most are...but there 's somethin'....no way the world was just created

[mickydaniels]

Originally posted by Bond
Shadow Link, how does Islam address democracy, women's rights, and people's freedom to choose their own destiny?

And I have an odd feeling Shadow Link invited Almansurah to debate...

both interesting points.

I'm still unclear about democracy and women's rights but I believe from the verses shown, anyone presented with Islam and rejects it, they must be destroyed?

[TheGame]

Originally posted by mickydaniels
both interesting points.

I'm still unclear about democracy and women's rights but I believe from the verses shown, anyone presented with Islam and rejects it, they must be destroyed?

Basically that's how I understand it too... Either join or die...

Not only that, I heard (this may not be accurate, but it was said to me) that if you die (or risk your own life) in this war attempting to kill people who won't convert, you will go to heaven and get 72 virgins(or somthing like that). Which explains why my islamic uncle was acctually not disgusted with Osama's actions... it was like he was trying to see the positive in it.

If the above is true, thier belief can't co-exist with Christianity one is right, and one is wrong.

[Shadow_Link]

Hey Bond, I'll post my reply to your answer as soon as I find the time and energy to bother to respond to it (I will some day, just hold your breath).

As for what MickeyDaniel's said, where did you hear that from?

Muslims have to respect other people, no matter what religion they follow. We can only offer guidance, and the rest is up to the them. As for what TheGame said, well, that isn't entirely true.

In war, those defeated had 3 options. Join Islam, practice your religion, though having to pay tax, or leave the city. Killing didn't ever come into it unless it was a soldier in the midst of war (no women, kids or elderly people). But ofcourse, things are different nowadays, and in places such as Britain and America, people are allowed to freely practice their religion without oppression (well, most of the time, you do get alot of jerks).

Believe it or not, Jihad wasn't just announced on the spur of the moment, it was announced to free the oppressed people, who werent allowed to practice their own religions, or whenever the muslims were attaked themselves, and even in places where burials of baby girls were freely practiced.

Game, Muslims believe if you die in war for the cause of Islam (which isn't restricted to forcefully converting people to Islam), you will be granted entry into Jannah (paradise/heaven).

And anyone that is granted entry into heaven (whether it's through Jihad, etc) will gain the reward of many things, inlcuding Virgins.

We don't believe only Muslims will go to heaven, infact, only one sect out of 70 odd muslims will be granted entry into heaven, those who basically followed the Quran and Sunnah. Same applies for Jews and Christians before the Quran came about (one sect out of 70 something for both).

Which explains why my islamic uncle was acctually not disgusted with Osama's actions... it was like he was trying to see the positive in it.

I'm sorry, but any true Muslim would be totally against Osama's actions on 9/11. Islam does not condone the killing of innocents. Though understanding his reasoning isn't hard for some, you wont find any true muslims who would agree with the way he dealt with the situation.

If the above is true, thier belief can't co-exist with Christianity one is right, and one is wrong.

I don't know if you knew, but God considers those who followed Christianity before Islam came about (because the Bible, and the religion itself had been changed) Muslims, because the religion itself was really meant to be what Islam is today. Same goes with Judaism and Christianity. Jews (as they are known now) were really following the true religion, and were considered Muslims until Christianity came about (due to the changing of the Torah, etc).

So if in co-exist, you mean are different from eachother, I'd agree with you to some extent. Islam afterall, we believe, has existed ever since the first prophets came to be. There has only been one true religion, and new prophets and messengers have had to be appointed to reinforce the message of God (due to tampering with the books), to direct us to the right path. The miracle of today is the Quran, which hasn't been changed even once, not a single vowel/letter/word in a period of around 1400 years. That is why no prophet has had to be assigned by God since the last prophet.

Sorry I had to go off on a tangent, but I felt it was neccessary.

[Bond]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
But ofcourse, things are different nowadays, and in places such as Britain and America, people are allowed to freely practice their religion without oppression (well, most of the time, you do get alot of jerks).

Ok, but this still has to do with my three basic questions. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a master on Islam. But I think those three questions are the basis of everything that you are saying.

Yes, in America and Britain, upon other countries, you are freely allowed to practice your religion, but...

Lets look at the mostly Muslim/Arab countries:

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, others.

I don't see people having the freedom to chose their own religion, and women having the same rights as men. Most women aren't even being educated in those countries. What I see are radical governments (Iran) that opress their own people.

So my point is this, it's hard to understand and/or believe what you are saying (at least for me) until you address those questions.

[TheGame]

I'm sorry, but any true Muslim would be totally against Osama's actions on 9/11. Islam does not condone the killing of innocents. Though understanding his reasoning isn't hard for some, you wont find any true muslims who would agree with the way he dealt with the situation.

Define a "true Muslim"... are the followers of Osama not Muslims?

Also, from what I heard... Osama can defend every action he has made with the words of the Qur'an.

But either way, thank you for educating me further on the subject.

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by Bond
Ok, but this still has to do with my three basic questions. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a master on Islam. But I think those three questions are the basis of everything that you are saying.

Yes, in America and Britain, upon other countries, you are freely allowed to practice your religion, but...

Lets look at the mostly Muslim/Arab countries:

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, others.

I don't see people having the freedom to chose their own religion, and women having the same rights as men. Most women aren't even being educated in those countries. What I see are radical governments (Iran) that opress their own people.

So my point is this, it's hard to understand and/or believe what you are saying (at least for me) until you address those questions.

I just want to quickly reply to this. You know what, I agree with everything you have said, again, to a certain extent. But there's one thing we have to remember, there's no such thing as an Ummah now, or a real Islamic state, that all died quite a while before the Ottoman empire reached its peak, or you maybe even before. Where ever you look in these so called Islamic states, there's always a problem. The problem in these countries isn't the religion, it's the people who run them, and also the people who live in them. Not all of them totally abide by the rules set in the Quran.

So really, these countires should not be used as an indication of what Islam should be, and how things should be run under it.

Define a "true Muslim"... are the followers of Osama not Muslims?

A true Muslim is one that strictly abides by EVERYTHING in the Quran, and the prophet's actions. He is not one that innovates in the religion, or picks and chooses what he wants to follow in the religion.

Also, from what I heard... Osama can defend every action he has made with the words of the Qur'an.

I'd like to know how. maybe if he went about his action a different way, they 'could' have been justified, but no, none of what happened on 9/11 can, except maybe the attack on the Pentagon (I'm not sure about that).

But either way, thank you for educating me further on the subject.

No problem, I'd like to help whenever I can.

[mickydaniels]

I don't know. So those that followed Judaism and Christianity were considered followers of Islam. So how come there are three different names of God? Allah, Yahweh, and Jehovah. How Did they stop pronouncing or what?

What happens to the other 69 and how come Christians in some Muslim countries have to practice their faith in secret?

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by mickydaniels
I don't know. So those that followed Judaism and Christianity were considered followers of Islam. So how come there are three different names of God? Allah, Yahweh, and Jehovah. How Did they stop pronouncing or what?

What happens to the other 69 and how come Christians in some Muslim countries have to practice their faith in secret?

Did you know that Allah just means God in Arabic? Christians in Saudi Arabia say Allah.

And I answered that last question in my previous post. If there was still an Ummah, which followed the Shariah, and real Imam's were appointed as leaders, then people of other religions wouldn't have to practice in secret.

What happens to the other 69... 69 what? Sects (it could be 70 or 71)? Well, hell is their abode, and also those who aren't people of the Holy books. (Just incase anyone was curious, not everyone will stay in Hell forever, and I think the Quran says there are 7 levels in Hell, the bottom reserved for those who commit shirk (associate anything with God, whether it be His powers, or comparing anything to His status), and I forgot the other types). I'm not entirely sure on the subject, so I'd prefer not to mention anymore before getting my information correct/verified.

[Ethan]

I didn't bother reading any of the new posts in this thread, so for all I know, you people could be discussing something entirely different. But anyway, I guess I'm an atheist (though that's hardly a religion). I like the idea of atheism because it doesn't require one to commit to anything at all (I guess that's the point, eh). That's perfect for me, because I could never fully give myself over to a religion or a god. I'm sure if I were a Christian I'd love God at first, but then I'd get tired of him later. One minute we're making sweet romance in a Pizza Hut bath room, the next He's asking me if those leather pants make his ass look big. It's not the pants, sweetheart.

[Professor S]

Ethan, I think you are more of an agnostic than an atheist. Atheists have adislike of religion and a sure belief that there is no God. If you aren't sure and don't feel comfortable commiting, thats agnosticism.