Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I watched the "A Brief History of America" clip, LOL. Moore's "brief history" on the KKK is so off it's ridiculous.

Marilyn Manson was right on the fact though that the media trys to make you afraid.

The media wants ratings. They take precedent over anything else. Blaming Mansom for murders when the murderers actually HATED his music is just one example.

I referenced the Brief History in my earlier post. Moore claims that there is a connection between the NRA and KKK. Never mind that the NRA was founded by union abolishionists. Once again, facts don't matter to him.

He also alludes to the Pilgrims being irrationally afraid of the British when they fled to the new world. The fact is that at the time Britain had demanded that everyone would "convert to the Church of England or die." Puritans were being jailed and executed at the time, but once again facts don't matter much to Moore.

I highly urge that everyone reads Bowlingfortruth.com, even if you are skeptical of the facts I have posted. the have an EXCELLENT dissection of the entirety of movie as well as the horribly inaccurate Brief History of America cartoon. If you go in with an open mind that site will open it more.

[Dylflon]

Wow. I don't agree with what you guys are saying, okay? I'm not WILLFULLY BLIND and I did inform myself by reading those sites. But becasue I disagree with you ,you'll probably call me stupid. And you guys have a problem with political srguments. I'm willing to see things from other points of view. But you (The Strangler and possibly Xantar) will just yell at me for saying what I believe which is mainly why i didn't argue with you. I didn't want another huge fight. But I don't agree with everything that you're saying. Now, I have read the info on the sites and have re-evaluated my beliefs and though what you say makes sense but I still don't agree with you. You can yell at me and throw your "facts" at me but I still won't care. Just like you won't be persuaded to see things from my POV i haven't been swayed to see things from yours. People of your political party spout lies and bull**** just like you say Michael Moore does. No matter what political party someone is in, some people will think they're full of ****. That is the problem about arguing about politics.

[Xantar]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Wow. I don't agree with what you guys are saying, okay? I'm not WILLFULLY BLIND and I did inform myself by reading those sites. But becasue I disagree with you ,you'll probably call me stupid. And you guys have a problem with political srguments. I'm willing to see things from other points of view. But you (The Strangler and possibly Xantar) will just yell at me for saying what I believe which is mainly why i didn't argue with you. I didn't want another huge fight. But I don't agree with everything that you're saying. Now, I have read the info on the sites and have re-evaluated my beliefs and though what you say makes sense but I still don't agree with you. You can yell at me and throw your "facts" at me but I still won't care. Just like you won't be persuaded to see things from my POV i haven't been swayed to see things from yours. People of your political party spout lies and bull**** just like you say Michael Moore does. No matter what political party someone is in, some people will think they're full of ****. That is the problem about arguing about politics.

So right from the beginning, you decided to not outline your position and just tell us that lots of people spout bull**** (and by implication, Michael Moore's yellow journalism is okay)?

Look, I don't know if you realize it, but gun control is beside the point in this debate. We're talking about Michael Moore, not guns. The Strangler has already said that he sees some validity in Michael Moore's argument but that nonetheless he wants an argument grounded in reality.

So if you think you disagree with me on whether guns should be banned or whether there should be tougher laws, don't. Unless you've seen my posts from a few years ago, you don't even know what my position on gun control. But I'll tell you right now that I don't exactly share The Strangler's position on gun control. And moreover, we most certainly don't belong to the same party as you seem to imply.

So what is it you disagree with us about? Do you disagree about whether Michael Moore is lying? Or do you disagree about whether it's acceptable?

What exactly do you believe?

I'm looking back through your posts, and all I see is you continually repeating, more or less, that everyone lies. You never attempt to, for example, refute The Strangler's argument that Michael Moore shouldn't be trusted. In other words, all you've been doing is evading the issue. And that is why I accused you of being willfully blind. I can't think of another reason you would refuse so consistently to just debate with The Strangler about what he's actually talking about.

[Dylflon]

Originally Posted by Xantar

So right from the beginning, you decided to not outline your position and just tell us that lots of people spout bull**** (and by implication, Michael Moore's yellow journalism is okay)?

Look, I don't know if you realize it, but gun control is beside the point in this debate. We're talking about Michael Moore, not guns. The Strangler has already said that he sees some validity in Michael Moore's argument but that nonetheless he wants an argument grounded in reality.

So if you think you disagree with me on whether guns should be banned or whether there should be tougher laws, don't. Unless you've seen my posts from a few years ago, you don't even know what my position on gun control. But I'll tell you right now that I don't exactly share The Strangler's position on gun control. And moreover, we most certainly don't belong to the same party as you seem to imply.

So what is it you disagree with us about? Do you disagree about whether Michael Moore is lying? Or do you disagree about whether it's acceptable?

What exactly do you believe?

I'm looking back through your posts, and all I see is you continually repeating, more or less, that everyone lies. You never attempt to, for example, refute The Strangler's argument that Michael Moore shouldn't be trusted. In other words, all you've been doing is evading the issue. And that is why I accused you of being willfully blind. I can't think of another reason you would refuse so consistently to just debate with The Strangler about what he's actually talking about.

Post another retort and it'll be your 5000th post.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Post another retort and it'll be your 5000th post.

LOL!! Talk about evasiveness and being willfully blind. Are you trying to prove Xantar's points?

[Dylflon]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

LOL!! Talk about evasiveness and being willfully blind.

Talk about how you should eat my ass.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Talk about how you should eat my ass.

Consider yourself broken.

*puts another notch in his war club*

[The Germanator]

Bowlingfortruth is a pretty good site...and I loved Bowling for Columbine after I walked out of theater, but some of the things they pointed out obviously make me a bit unsure now. I definetly won't take this move quite as seriously any more, even though it's still enjoyable to watch. Though I think sometimes the author of the site may misconstrue some of Moore's scenes and act like they are implying much worse lies or untruths then they really do. For instance, when the author is examining the native american scene in the "Brief History of America" cartoon he says, "We are told, regarding what the Pilgrims did to the Indians: 'They killed them all' and then 'You would think that wiping out an entire race of people would calm em down.' That's 2 lines telling us that Native Americans were made extinct by the Pilgrims. Someone is lying here. Either Michael Moore, or the 1990 U.S. Census, that says there are 1,878,285 Native American Indians in the United States. Someone should send a memo to these people and notify them that they don't exist."

Now...I feel that this point is a bit ridiculous. It's obvious that exaggeration is used, and if anyone actually believes that all Native Americans were made extinct by the Pilgrims. He acts like the public wouldn't be able to point that out for themselves. Does anyone honestly believe that Moore thinks that no Native Americans are alive anymore? C'mon...

Another part I had a problem with is during the examination of the "What a Wonderful World" montage. The author states, "So Moore paints a picture of the US plopping bombs on Iraq 'on a weekly basis' just cuz we feel like it - the reality is quite different. The point is about twisting the act of law enforcement into something that seems unjustified."

I may be wrong about this, but as far as I remember there wasn't necessarily this implication that they were "plopping bombs just cuz we feel like it"...Of course there is a reason for the bombings, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the bombings did in fact take place, which I believe may be the main point. Obviously every viewer will read this scene and statement in a different way, and I suppose I just took a different apporach in the examination some of these scenes...I mean, I disagree with a lot of the opinions the author gives on certain scenes, and believe that Bushnell ( I think that's his name) provides a similar sort of conservative spin on his agruments against Moore and the movie. Though he doesn't tell outright lies and he does expose Moore's which I applaud think is the most useful portion of the site. I could do without some of his analysis which seems a bit exaggerated at points.


Anyway, I haven't completley read through the site, but I think I get the gist of it...My overwhelming positive opinion of Moore has slipped a lot. I probably got caught up in my typical liberal, gun-control ways without wanting to see the truth. I suppose the main problem was that I thought I WAS seeing the truth, it is supposed to be a documentary right? That said, I don't need Michael Moore or anyone else to tell me that I don't agree with current gun control regulations. There's still something wrong when there are so many gun related homocides and deaths in the United States. I don't have the answer, and don't think Michael Moore does either (lies don't help), but the fact that my opinions on this movie and Moore have changed don't really affect my personal feeling about gun politics, which is most important to me.

[Dylflon]

I'm formally removing myself from this conversation.

And I do know that some "facts" were "not facts" but the rest of my points I still back up.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

I'm formally removing myself from this conversation.

And I do know that some "facts" were "not facts" but the rest of my points I still back up.

Exactly what do you back them up with? Candy?

BTW, I'm not Republican (which I pointed out in my first post) and Xantar is a liberal (I think), just not one of the hysterical scaremongering variety.

Germenator, I do agree that at times bowlingfortruth.com does exagerrate, and moorewatch can be even worse but they're by contributors so it goes from post to post. Your example of the piece on the Indians I noticed also and found it to be a bit offensive. While Moore is oversimplistic about his accusations, so is the site in that manor. Anyone who has heard of the trail of tears knows that the Native Americans were not treated well. I also don't agree with the authors assertions on Marilyn Manson's contribution to Columbine. In this he becomes a victim of his passion much like Moore.

Visiting those sites is much like watching the Fox News Channel. You can learn a lot that no one else will tell you, but you also have to take it with a grain of salt, or in Moore's case an 8 ball of heroin.

If you want a great, level headed sober opinion, Jonah Goldberg is your man.