President Obama Healthcare Speech

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Ok, so the poll didn't refer specifically to a A public option, but instead specifically to the BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION INCLUDED AS THE CENTERPIECE.

And you think that makes the poll invalid?

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

As for your continued claim that the question is about "how washington is handling it" please supply proof of the question. So far all I've found is evidnce from Rasmussen that directly contradicts your assertion. Link please.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made? My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

Once again, we'll see if 'the people' are really opposed to the public option when the only poll that matters happens again.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

No, so far this is fact:

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

Until you prove otherwise. Please provide the link the question that asked about "how washington is handling it". I have yet to see this mysterious question.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made?

... with a public option as it's centerpiece... it's amazing that you're continuing with this, truly.

My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

Try again. This is fun.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

[TheGame]

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

your own quote:

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

Or to break it down:

I said

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option

Your quote:

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option

*coughs*

The second part of my quote:

it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now.

The second part of your quote:

it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

So once again:

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

So you can keep argueing against the facts all you want.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

The REALITY of the bill is that the public option was being, and still is being comprimised out of it. Which is why support for it is getting lower and lower.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

Exactly, which is why I said:

It boils down to them not wanting to fight against companies who pay them. That's why there's a civil war in the democratic party right now... Its good politics that the american people want vs good campaign donations. And as long as the republican party keeps looking and acting like morons in this situation, they're not scared of losing votes to them.. However, losing campaign contributions by going against private insurers is a bigger threat

and finally

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

once again

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

You're trying to make the connection that people are voting directly for if they would like to have a public option or not, which isn't the case in this poll. It wasn't the question that was asked, nor is it getting the same results it would have if the question didn't reference the weak sauce that has been being pulled over the last 5+ months.

It'd be like polling NBA fans on if they liked the washington wizards in the early 2000's vs asking if they liked Michael Jordan. And then turning around and saying "But Michael Jordan is the centerpiece of that team!!!!. You're manipulating the poll to fit your own definition.

It did not ask directly if people would like the public option. No matter how much you would like to twist the meaning.

[Professor S]

The BILL does not translate to "how washington is handling it". The bill is the reality of the public option in all it's form, substance and glory.

Your public option is a ghost. A mythical conceit without form or substance. It's a public option that has no downside because it's the perfection of the mind and doesn't care about the real world or unintended consequences. It is impossible to argue against such a beast, so I refuse to do so. I argue REALITY.

I am arguing reality and information based on people's reaction to that reality. You are arguing something that does not exist. You literally have no argument because you have nothing to argue besides an idea of what something SHOULD be but ISN'T.

Hence, people like the idea of "A" public option, the mythological ideal, but not "THE" public option, the reality of what it means once the ideal is attempted to be made reality.

This is REALITY

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

The overall picture remains one of stability. Today’s record low support for the plan of 41% is just a point lower than the results found twice before. With the exception of a slight bounce earlier this month following the president’s nationally televised speech to Congress to promote the plan, support for it has remained in the low-to-mid 40s since early July. During that same time period, opposition has generally stayed in the low-to-mid 50s.

You're refusal to accept it does not invalidate it. It just makes you seem unhinged.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The BILL does not translate to "how washington is handling it". The bill is the reality of the public option in all it's form, substance and glory.

The public option is just one part of the bill that can be (was being, and has been) compromised. Therefore that question isn't asking if people want a public option or not. How hard is that to understand?

"Do you support this bill" =\= "Do you want a public option to be passed"

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

The public option is just one part of the bill that can be (was being, and has been) compromised. Therefore that question isn't asking if people want a public option or not. How hard is that to understand?

Ok, so in your definition, what exactly were people against when it comes to the public option legislation that has been proposed? No generalizations... specifics. What exactly did people not like about it?

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Ok, so in your definition, what exactly were people against when it comes to the public option legislation that has been proposed? No generalizations... specifics. What exactly did people not like about it?

Good question... but before I answer I have to give a disclaimer, and restate my point. The people are for having a public option if it lowers their healthcare costs, helps heal the out of control deficit, and increases coverage. Which is exatly what it is meant to, and will do.

People were against that particular bill because dems were coming on TV basically begging for it to be compromised. They continuiously acted like the public option was something that could be removed, and they didn't back it. Plus they claimed they needed republican's support even though they didn't.. and republican's stance was "We won't even have a discussion unless there's no public option".. which translates to "We won't have a discussion unless you do exactly what I want you to do".

Plus. since dems didn't want it to pass really, they would not go on TV and combat the right's claims that this would add to the deficit instead of healing the out of control costs in the system as is now. They even allowed lies like "Death pannels" to run the air waves without calling out a single person's BS.

To Obama's credit, when he did the speech it did boost morale for the healthcare reform bill, however less then a month later he got his first taste of boos when he mentioned Max Baucus' bill, and likely just killed support for what they're trying to pass again. (And in the same speech got a standing ovation when he mentioned the public option)

But with all that said, it doesn't kill the underlying fact that the majority of people want to have a public option. The reason people were and are against what's being pushed through now, is because it is and was too open to compromise.

And since the republicans are pushing for the exact opposite of what the majority of people want. Their arguement in this debate is not going to help them get votes, its just going to further push them into being a minority. While Dems teasing people with the idea won't directly cost them votes (to the opposition anyway, maybe people won't vote at all), its going to kill their approval ratings.