Religions

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by Professor S

You are forgetting the most important ingredient in baking a cake. THE BAKER. Without him, there is no cake.

I'm anything but lazy, as I hope I have proven with my background knowledge and research. I am a former atheist, and was raised in a non-religious household. My belief in God is a result of a search of knowledge, and not an avoidance of it. I consider ALL possibilities. Do you? Or have you already made up your mind based on assumptions and statistical impossibilities?

Heh, going to refer to god as the Baker from now on. The holy trinity of the Butcher, the Baker, and the Candlestick-maker


I do find it your shift in perspective to be interesting. I mapped out my logic behind an afterlife previously in this thread. There's enough proof for me to believe life started without a guiding hand. Especially when you consider the sheer size of the universe and the number of planets within it. A freak accident like life is bound to happen. I can't wrap my mind around what existed before the big bang though. Even if this universe is the offshoot of another, where did that one come from? Or if everything was condensed and the universe is cyclical in nature of expanding and contracting, there has to be a starting point. So if I was to give the plausibility of a god to anything it would be that. But then where did that god come from?

But really, why would a supreme being who created all of everything, make one-celled organisms on this planet? Given this discussion, I'm assuming you don't believe all the creatures on Earth were magicked into existence like the really religious types do.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Heh, going to refer to god as the Baker from now on. The holy trinity of the Butcher, the Baker, and the Candlestick-maker

You made that one too easy for me. But I think a baker is a decent analogy.

I do find it your shift in perspective to be interesting.

Probably because I am a deist, and not tied to religion or dogma. In many ways, my belief in God is based in reason. Without a definite answer to everything, and the failure of atheist evangelists like Richard Dawkins to adequately make their case (often betraying themselves when they try), I still have this underlying belief in my chest that there is a God, so I choose to follow that belief.

I mapped out my logic behind an afterlife previously in this thread. There's enough proof for me to believe life started without a guiding hand. Especially when you consider the sheer size of the universe and the number of planets within it. A freak accident like life is bound to happen. I can't wrap my mind around what existed before the big bang though. Even if this universe is the offshoot of another, where did that one come from? Or if everything was condensed and the universe is cyclical in nature of expanding and contracting, there has to be a starting point. So if I was to give the plausibility of a god to anything it would be that. But then where did that god come from?

But really, why would a supreme being who created all of everything, make one-celled organisms on this planet? Given this discussion, I'm assuming you don't believe all the creatures on Earth were magicked into existence like the really religious types do.

Good questions, but I doubt I have answers. My belief is that God gave the components and the spark, but then let the engine run on its own, but this isn't a strong belief. Hard to say, but I love trying to find the answer.

As for evolution, I definitely think evolution in a species exists, and there is a strong chance that evolution between species takes place, but I'm not convinced of that. There are a lot of holes in Darwinism that need to be worked out. I'm not anti-Darwin, but I'm also not a blindly devout Darwinist like Richard Dawkins.

My biggest problem with people like Dawkins are that they are so devout in their faith that they lose their objectivity, and at that point they cease to be scientists, and become evangelists. Essentially, he is everything he says he hates, just the perspective is reversed.

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by Professor S

As for evolution, I definitely think evolution in a species exists, and there is a strong chance that evolution between species takes place, but I'm not convinced of that. There are a lot of holes in Darwinism that need to be worked out. I'm not anti-Darwin, but I'm also not a blindly devout Darwinist like Richard Dawkins.

My biggest problem with people like Dawkins are that they are so devout in their faith that they lose their objectivity, and at that point they cease to be scientists, and become evangelists. Essentially, he is everything he says he hates, just the perspective is reversed.

I only ever hear the term "Darwinism" from folks who question evolution, equating it to a belief with Darwin as a prophet of sorts. Dawkins is a bit of a dick. I'll give you that.

Theres a funny show on netflix called "Animals that Defy Evolution". Its about some scientist guy who believed in evolution but then saw the light and now is trying to disprove it with stuff that doesnt make any sense. Hes things like, if theres a giraffe sitting there and it sees a zebra, hes just gonna chill, but if it sees a lion it runs away. Evolution didnt tell it to run away, god gave it the ability to distinguish between predators and other animals. And if god didnt make whales right on the spot like they are, theres no way it would have survived through evolution. Hes pretty much says that if god didnt make every animal it would have died.

Ah, I've heard about him. His doctorate is in dentistry.

[Typhoid]

It is a current statistical impossibility that life spontaneously originated on it's own. Those that choose not to believe in God have tried to answer this by presenting theories such as "planet seeding by aliens" (who created the aliens?) to "we just don't know yet, but it wasn't God".

Not to farm back 18 (or whatever) posts, but that's not entirely accurate.


I'll try break this down simply. I don't mean that as an insult, I just meant so it's as easy as possible for everyone to understand - and to try not to sidetrack myself.

I watched a show on the probable origins of life in the Universe a while back, and it made amazingly valid, and exceptional points.

They found elements of organic material on asteroids floating through space, meaning that asteroid impact can be a very likely cause of life. Not just on Earth, but everywhere. Asteroids are like the seed bags of life, and planets are the Earth for it to grow in.

Now that leaves the question of "well why isn't life everywhere, then?"
Maybe life isn't possible everywhere, but the possibility for life is everywhere, and life just happens to be a statistical inevitability of circumstance. (Sort of like Mold! Mold won't grow on every loaf of bread you have that goes bad, but if you give mold the conditions to grow, it always will.)

If you go dig in the middle of the Gobi desert, you might not find a plant, or even any traces of plants - but there are sure as shit plants on Earth, despite the fact you might not have found any in the 50 feet where you're standing in the Gobi desert.

Just because one may scatter seeds everywhere on the ground, doesn't mean the ground will be littered with plants; but just because there aren't any plants doesn't mean there aren't any seeds. You dig?


Edit:

You are forgetting the most important ingredient in baking a cake. THE BAKER. Without him, there is no cake.

But what if the ingredients for that cake were floating in space under their own power, and came together randomly, over billions of years to form a cake? a cake can't bake on it's own, you say?

What if the materials for the cake's oven were also spontaneously formed after billions of years of random coincidences, and inside of that oven a cake also formed. The oven then cooks the cake.

Now, I can see how the cake would say "How the fuck did I get here? I'm just a cake. I wasn't anything before, but now I am a delicious treat. How did I come out of billions of years of nothingness?"

See, the cake can't comprehend the reality of being a cake, because it is simply only a cake. In the cake's mind, the oven always was. The oven created the cake. But in reality the oven was also spontaneously formed after billions of years of perfect scenarios.
It doesn't understand that billions of years of swirling gasses and pressure can have nearly limitless possibilities.

Now, you might think "Wow, it's amazing that an oven was formed by simply gas, pressure and billions of years. And it's even more amazing that a cake was formed inside of that oven."

It might seemed far fetched to you, pastry-lover. "Why aren't there more cakes, then?" you might say.
Well since the spontaneous oven/cake was a series of perfect events, take the lack of other cakes as the sheer mindboggling fraction of a chance that came together for that one cake to form in the first place.

--------
While I try to be spiritual, I don't believe in creationism. By no means does that diminish the amazing happenings to take place for simply me to be here. I believe in the power of man. To give in to a higher power in the sense of creationism; I feel, diminishes the intelligence and sheer capability of man.

I like religion because it gives people piece of mind, and teaches good values. The one reason I don't like "religion" is because it holds people back from learning about the Universe. This is the struggle I always have.

I always think, if religious people are so sure there is a God, what's the harm in being knowledgable about the Universe. Surely he must have created everything, so what's the harm in studying more of his creations? Astronomers don't study planets and deep space to say "Nope, still haven't seen the face of God", so in that sense I don't understand the medieval divide that still remains between the two.


if anything I'm thrown off that religion suddenly ceased changing it's tone. Religions typically changed to encompass new understandings. World was flat, etc. But somewhere along the line, as massive un-repairable rip happened between learning about the stars, and believing in God. At one time, they were the exact same thing. Until somewhere along the line one person said "Hey, I'm afraid you won't find a God up there, don't look there." and someone else said "Hey buddy, I just want to know what shape the world is."

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

I only ever hear the term "Darwinism" from folks who question evolution, equating it to a belief with Darwin as a prophet of sorts. Dawkins is a bit of a dick. I'll give you that.

By Darwinism I am referring to those that have full faith in Darwin's theory without exception. You can believe in evolution without taking everything Darwin believed as fact. I believe in evolution, but I am not a Darwinist.

And Typhoid, I appreciate the discussion, but I'm not sure your contribution addressed my points. The statistical impossibility of life originating spontaneously still exists whether from a meteor or on planet or the result co-mingling ingredients of a celestial pastry.

[Typhoid]

And Typhoid, I appreciate the discussion, but I'm not sure your contribution addressed my points. The statistical impossibility of life originating spontaneously still exists whether from a meteor or on planet or the result co-mingling ingredients of a celestial pastry.

My point was more that it's nearly impossible for humans to comprehend things beyond our lifetime. We're finite creatures trying to comprehend infinite possibilities.

I'll try prove what I'm saying a lot simpler.


How did your parents meet?
Did they live in the same city?
Did their parents move from separate cities to meet in 1 singular location, on one specific chance-happening?

Now go back further, what about your grandparents? Possibly they came from overseas.
Not to mention you were the winning sperm, and so was every other living person. That in itself is an amazing accomplishment for every living person. You fought for your right to exist before you even knew it.

Now let's just say one of your great grandparents didn't get on that boat, or your mom didn't go to that McDonald's that day and meet your dad - how different things would be for you - You wouldn't exist. Granted, you wouldn't know about it. But in going back 100+ years, there have already been an amazing amount of spontaneous coincidences for simply you to be alive. Now what about every other person who has ever existed. Now what about every single living thing that has ever existed. Now think about the specific location of every single planet, and floating body in space. If one of them is even a millionth of a fraction off (of say a collision, for example), billions of years down the line everything might be entirely different.


Now, it's a hell of a lot easier to say "wow, that sounds amazingly impossible. Someone must have controlled all of that", than it is to say "Wow. Imagine how insanely minute of a chance my sole existence is even going back only 100 years."




Edit:
*Places tongue in cheek*

What you (Not you, you) have to grasp to really understand it, is that humans aren't important. Life isn't about us. We're simply animals. We can just comprehend that, is all. A lot of us aren't okay with being animals - that we're better than they are. And in a lot of human-viewed ways we totally are. But in the grand sceme of the Universe we're just an organism on a small blue planet floating around an insignificant star among a throng of other suns on a non-descript arm of a galaxy just like countless others.

But I digress...

[TheSlyMoogle]

On an off topic I wish we could go back and review some of the old religion threads we had several years back. I just remember some of the stuff we talked about then, and see how much we have all learned and grown since.

Anyway, I kind of agree with Prof here.

Either way, life as a whole, is a wonderful thing. However it happened, it did.

I stopped trying to figure it out, or trying to disprove a higher power. I rarely ever discuss it either, but will with people who generally aren't closed in their beliefs.

I just enjoy people who are constantly questioning. At the end of the day you can't know for certain, science or anyone really. Which is why death is the next great adventure they say. I hope that's true

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

But really, why would a supreme being who created all of everything, make one-celled organisms on this planet? Given this discussion, I'm assuming you don't believe all the creatures on Earth were magicked into existence like the really religious types do.

I find this to be a particularly agonizing point that Evangelicals who discount evolution tend to make. Having a God that needed to intervene to create intelligent life, or who needs to intervene in every step in the evolutionary (intelligent design) process is not impressive. Indeed, it is the sign of an incompetent God.

A far more competent, and impressive God would be able to set life into motion with one stroke of the pen, with the eventual outcome being intelligent life. Evolution is God's friend.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I'm asking specifically, why do you thank god for what you have. Why do you think he expended his power to help you, but not use it to feed someone who is starving?

Why do you assume by thanking God for what one has, one is also affirming that God extended His power to help? Is this what you assume religious people mean when they do this? For most I know, it is not.

Also, I see sporting events all the time where a player will have a great game and his or her team will win. At the end, they usually thank god.

How do they justify believing that god helped them win a football game, but he isn't saving starving people?

Again, are you assuming these players, by praying, are thanking God for helping them to win the football game, or do you know this for fact? I've watched a few players speak on this subject, and what you assume is incorrect for them, at the least.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but I think you might be seeing what you want to see in the actions of religious people.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Life cannot be pre-determined if you have a choice, and if life is pre-determined, nothing you actually decide is a 'choice', it has all already been chosen for you by God.

Free will and determinism are compatible under the philosophical thought of... you guessed it... Compatibilism. See: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Bond

Why do you assume by thanking God for what one has, one is also affirming that God extended His power to help? Is this what you assume religious people mean when they do this? For most I know, it is not.


Again, are you assuming these players, by praying, are thanking God for helping them to win the football game, or do you know this for fact? I've watched a few players speak on this subject, and what you assume is incorrect for them, at the least.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but I think you might be seeing what you want to see in the actions of religious people.

Yeah, that is what I assume. What do they really mean, then? Are they simply thanking god for their existence in the universe? I could see that meaning having some relevance, but at the same time it feels like a pointless thing to say.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Yeah, that is what I assume. What do they really mean, then? Are they simply thanking god for their existence in the universe? I could see that meaning having some relevance, but at the same time it feels like a pointless thing to say.

Generally speaking, I think that is fair to say. More specifically, it's thanking God for their athletic ability and recognizing that without God they would not be in a place to play xyz sports game. It's a derivation of "There but for the grace of God, go I."