April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo

[Aladuf]

How is there a difference? Either way, Game Party would classify as a non-game and a party game I guess. Which is appropriate because it seems to have enough suck for 2 games.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Aladuf

How is there a difference? Either way, Game Party would classify as a non-game and a party game I guess. Which is appropriate because it seems to have enough suck for 2 games.

How is there a difference between a non-game and a party game?

Really?

But before I even go into that debate, what the hell is your definition of a non-game?

Because as much as you throw it around, I don't even think you have a firm grasp on what people use it for.

[Aladuf]

I classify a non-game as:

Wario Ware
Game Party
Wii Sports
Wii Play
Wii Fit
Carnival Games
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Basically, mini-game collections (edit: games you wouldn't actually sit down and play by yourself), games where you don't actually play (Wii Fit). Shovelware.

[Renwood]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Yeah, it's a Ps2 port and figured it would be the one you mentioned, but hell it didn't sell well the first time around.

I hope there's not any subtext here about Okami not deserving to sell more. It's fantastically amazing and shoehorns waggle controls in as well as Twilight Princess, which sold a criminally higher amount, relative to their comparative quality.

Originally Posted by Aladuf

Basically, mini-game collections (edit: games you wouldn't actually sit down and play by yourself), games where you don't actually play (Wii Fit). Shovelware.

There is a distinction though. Wii Play is very much a traditional game. Pong and Duck Hunt are games. Wii Play focuses on local multiplayer to a high degree, but its games are all squarely within the realm of traditional game mechanics. Its more a retro collection with a motion control gimmick than a party game.

You can make an arguement that party games are the ancestor to non-games, but there isn't a logical cut-off. If you start down that road, many genres become very murky, because it is all semantics. The action category and the puzzle category and the RPG category do not exist in vacuums anymore. Ditto non-games and party games. Most things are a meld of multiple design disciplines at this point.

Synergy, daddy.

[Dyne]

Wait, what? Last time I checked, Wario Wares took skill, because the shtick was that it was a TON of microgames thrown at you at once. I don't really agree that it could be considered a non-game based on the flow of the randomized gameplay. However, the GCN one and the Wii one added the whole "party" kind of gameplay, which ruined it for me, personally.

I would consider a non-game different from shovelware as well. They have different terms for a reason.

[gekko]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I'm tempted to remove the Wii from the console wars entirely

And this is what's wrong with gamers. What war? I must've missed it on CNN. There is no war, no battle, it's simply two companies with competing products. The only people who should care are the ones working for those companies. The rest of you simply decided you wanted to cheer for an electronics box that hooks up to your TV and then suddenly became hooligans fighting with each other.

Now the modified GameCube is outselling cotton and you don't know what to do. Your telling me the solution is to remove it from your imaginary battlefield? This is a joke.

But instead of just sitting back and watching in amazement, you now want to argue that the console is a horrible failure and it's not what third-parties want. Thank you for being the voice of third parties around the world, I was hoping someone would step up to the plate sooner or later.

But you're right, on so many levels. Wii is a complete failure... oh, and wasn't Nintendo supposed to go bankrupt this generation?

[DeathsHand]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

You damned if you do.
And damned if you don't if your Nintendo.

----------------

But is there a chance.. a small small chance that people who buy it actually enjoy it?

Maybe... and yet...
If Nintendo had decided to create a system that was truly in direct competition (as people like to put it) with Sony and Microsoft, and this hypothetical system surpassed Gamecube's total worldwide sales in less than 2 years (and was very likely to eventually surpass N64's total sales), as the Wii has done, there'd really be no "damned if you do" attitude right now...

Nintendo fans have always bought Nintendo consoles for Nintendo's offerings... With the Wii, you're still getting those; so from a Nintendo fan's perspective, you have everything you've always loved, only now it's selling like hotcakes...

The whole problem with this discussion lies within this new "casual" pseudo/non-gamer base they've tapped into, what they've done for sales, how interested they actually end up being in gaming, what kind of games they're interested in, etc etc etc...

As for Game Party/Carnival Games' success, of course there's a chance that someone will actually enjoy it (maybe somewhere along the lines of a 21% chance)... Especially among the new market Nintendo's discovered...
See though, I can't help but feel a bit like a snooty, elitist longtime gamer, but I personally don't want the future of gaming to be made up of by poorly thrown together mini-game compilations...
And from where I'm standing, the only difference between Wii and last generation is the success of that type of game, the mainstream hype, a dryer market of quality third-party titles, and a new controller that, IMO, hasn't quite lived up to the hype as the "future of gaming"...

Originally Posted by Gekko

There is no war, no battle, it's simply two companies with competing products. The only people who should care are the ones working for those companies. The rest of you simply decided you wanted to cheer for an electronics box that hooks up to your TV and then suddenly became hooligans fighting with each other.

If I may be the voice of Professor S's around the world, "console wars" is just a familiar label gamers use when discussing this situation in which two or three companies have competing products, so as not to have to type out "this situation in which companies have competing products" every time they want to mention it...
And while I'll agree that the term does give off a sense of teenagers throwing a couple of hissy-fits, I don't think that's the case...
But perhaps we can agree to call it "TSIWCHCP"?

As far as I'm concerned, TSIWCHCP simply provides a forum for discussion of where you see gaming going, where you want to see it go, etc etc...
Wii's new demographic simply makes things more interesting...A tad bit'o'the unknown... OoOoogidy...

[Aladuf]

Originally Posted by Dyne

I would consider a non-game different from shovelware as well. They have different terms for a reason.

I would consider them different but most shovelware seems to be mini-games these days so it just seems to be an negative association I have. I'm ignorant towards the Wii, what can I say? My blind hate for the system prevents me from knowing anything past first party games.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by gekko

And this is what's wrong with gamers. What war? I must've missed it on CNN. There is no war, no battle, it's simply two companies with competing products. The only people who should care are the ones working for those companies. The rest of you simply decided you wanted to cheer for an electronics box that hooks up to your TV and then suddenly became hooligans fighting with each other.

Now the modified GameCube is outselling cotton and you don't know what to do. Your telling me the solution is to remove it from your imaginary battlefield? This is a joke.

But instead of just sitting back and watching in amazement, you now want to argue that the console is a horrible failure and it's not what third-parties want. Thank you for being the voice of third parties around the world, I was hoping someone would step up to the plate sooner or later.

But you're right, on so many levels. Wii is a complete failure... oh, and wasn't Nintendo supposed to go bankrupt this generation?

Wow what a huge over reaction lol. Nobody's saying Wii is a failure, people are just saying its different and isn't exactly competing head up with Ps3 or 360. Just like the Tekken arcade machine at the mall is different, and isn't competing head up with the 360 or Ps3. Or like Sony PSP or GBA is different and isn't cometing head up with them.

Nobody's saying Wii failed or its crap, you're just jumping the gun way too hard.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Aladuf

I classify a non-game as:

Wario Ware
Game Party
Wii Sports
Wii Play
Wii Fit
Carnival Games
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Basically, mini-game collections (edit: games you wouldn't actually sit down and play by yourself), games where you don't actually play (Wii Fit). Shovelware.

You see your definition is very loose and I don't believe befitting of the term.
The way I see most people define a non-game such as Brain Age or Wii Fit is there are no real goals. You just kind of play the game.

Most of those games have some goal whether it is a high score or beating your friends or unlocking new mini-games.

A mini-game collection doesn't equal a non-game.
And your definition of games you wouldn't sit down and play by yourself is too subjective.
I wouldn't mind playing Wii Sports by myself every now and then. Same deal with Wario Ware (especially since you have to to unlock multiplayer) so I really don't like that definition.
Hell by your definition TF 2 is a non-game as well.

Originally Posted by DeathsHand

Nintendo fans have always bought Nintendo consoles for Nintendo's offerings... With the Wii, you're still getting those; so from a Nintendo fan's perspective, you have everything you've always loved, only now it's selling like hotcakes...

I'm not gonna disagree with this statement, but how is playing a Nintendo console for Nintendo games any different than people who bought 360s for Halo 3 or people who buy Ps3 for MGS 4 and GTA IV?

I mean the argument always seems to pop up and just because people buy a console for first party efforts (who would have thunk it) doesn't make it a negative.

Now I know the arguement will lead down the well its the only games they buy category, but that isn't true either. The problem is not many 3rd parties want to put compelling content on the Wii and see if it sells because they have this stigma.

But I will champion several 3rd party efforts on the Wii and I own them like they deserve. Developers need to have confidence in their games being about to sell under any condition.

As for Game Party/Carnival Games' success, of course there's a chance that someone will actually enjoy it (maybe somewhere along the lines of a 21% chance)... Especially among the new market Nintendo's discovered...
See though, I can't help but feel a bit like a snooty, elitist longtime gamer, but I personally don't want the future of gaming to be made up of by poorly thrown together mini-game compilations...

That is the same feeling Aladuf shares.
And for some reason the creation of Wii Play and Game Party hasn't stopped stuff like Gears 2 or Prototype or hell even Mad World from being announced. Epic isn't all of sudden turning GoW 2 into Gears Party or Halo Play.

And from where I'm standing, the only difference between Wii and last generation is the success of that type of game, the mainstream hype, a dryer market of quality third-party titles, and a new controller that, IMO, hasn't quite lived up to the hype as the "future of gaming"...

I will give you the Wii hasn't lived up to its true potential yet, but there have been many bright lights of hope.

Just need someone to grab hold of it.

Originally Posted by Aladuf

I would consider them different but most shovelware seems to be mini-games these days so it just seems to be an negative association I have. I'm ignorant towards the Wii, what can I say? My blind hate for the system prevents me from knowing anything past first party games.

Well your hatred of Wii shines through all the time, but why are shovelware/non-games a Nintendo-only factor?
I have pointed out there is a ton of crap on the ps3/360 as well, but no one ever wants to call them on that.

No its big bad Nintendo who has nothing but crap on their console. Even though, I personally feel the console has a rather decent library at the moment, you are so intent on focusing on the games you don't like on the console that you won't even give the other ones a chance.

I mean what were the chances of you buying/playing Game Party anyhow? But here is an entire discussion on it.

How was NO More Heroes? How was Okami Wii? How was Medal of Honor Heroes 2?

My point being don't point fingers at the crap and then ignore the quality stuff because it suits your arguement.

Yeah, the Wii has crap. It isn't a new story. And it isn't one that will change anytime soon. They are the most dominant console on the market right now it makes sense for the most crap to go there. You have a better chance of selling it to a wider audience.

Originally Posted by TheGame

Wow what a huge over reaction lol. Nobody's saying Wii is a failure, people are just saying its different and isn't exactly competing head up with Ps3 or 360. Just like the Tekken arcade machine at the mall is different, and isn't competing head up with the 360 or Ps3. Or like Sony PSP or GBA is different and isn't cometing head up with them.

Nobody's saying Wii failed or its crap, you're just jumping the gun way too hard.

Justin defending the Wii.
Now I've seen it all.

[Renwood]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

You see your definition is very loose and I don't believe befitting of the term.
The way I see most people define a non-game such as Brain Age or Wii Fit is there are no real goals. You just kind of play the game.

Not really an accurate delineation; I use the term non-game to describe the new wave since it seems to be what everyone has adopted, but its a bit dumb.

Brain Age has a number activities that you must perform to unlock more activities. Each day, your goal is to test yourself and see if you have risen or lowered on the brain age scale. Something similar can be found in Wii Sports with charting your physical age. Unlocking things through play, time trials, a number of different activities; its very much a game. Its wrapped in this strange aesthetic thats foreign, so its given this non-game distinction to separate it, but looking at the actual mechanics of the game, its not a radical departure.

I haven't looked into Wii Fit, but I imagine it has similar modes to Wii Sports and Wii Play. The Yoga might be considered a non-game, but then, you're still interacting with on-screen prompts to progress, so is that really so far removed from the philosophy behind Guitar Hero, where, if I may parrot my favorite comparison ever, the gameplay consists of rapid Quick-time events.

As to "just playing," I think thats a flimsy differentiator when games exist with such radical differences in difficulty. If I pop into "very easy" mode in Metal Gear Solid, I "just play" and watch some movies. I think I actually am more engaged by Brain Age in that instance.

I consider non-games to be a lazy term that the enthusiast press picked up and ran with because it was easier than melding these games into the categories that already exist and which they only refine, not revolutionize. It would be harder and take longer to take a moment and analyze these games that seem different to see the underlying mechanics, and its very easy to say "oh, that doesn't look like anything I've ever done. No marines, no elves, no violence? Some mini-games? Non-game!"

Originally Posted by BreakABone

How was NO More Heroes?

Not as good as my other games and made me feel bad to have in my possession when other better games went unplayed. That has been seen to.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Renwood

Not really an accurate delineation; I use the term non-game to describe the new wave since it seems to be what everyone has adopted, but its a bit dumb.

I personally hate the term "non-game"
I also hate the use of casual vs hardcore but that's another topic.

Brain Age has a number activities that you must perform to unlock more activities. Each day, your goal is to test yourself and see if you have risen or lowered on the brain age scale. Something similar can be found in Wii Sports with charting your physical age. Unlocking things through play, time trials, a number of different activities; its very much a game. Its wrapped in this strange aesthetic thats foreign, so its given this non-game distinction to separate it, but looking at the actual mechanics of the game, its not a radical departure.

I own and to some extent enjoy Brain Age, but the game itself has no real goals. If you get a Brain Age of 20 it isn't an end really. Just means you are sharp that day or know how to cheat the system well.

Most people declare it a non-game because there really isn't any reward for playing other than personal satisfication.
Sort of like the Sims.

As to "just playing," I think thats a flimsy differentiator when games exist with such radical differences in difficulty. If I pop into "very easy" mode in Metal Gear Solid, I "just play" and watch some movies. I think I actually am more engaged by Brain Age in that instance.

Another arguement for another day. Level of difficulty in a game.

I consider non-games to be a lazy term that the enthusiast press picked up and ran with because it was easier than melding these games into the categories that already exist and which they only refine, not revolutionize. It would be harder and take longer to take a moment and analyze these games that seem different to see the underlying mechanics, and its very easy to say "oh, that doesn't look like anything I've ever done. No marines, no elves, no violence? Some mini-games? Non-game!"

Wow i agree.

Not as good as my other games and made me feel bad to have in my possession when other better games went unplayed. That has been seen to.

No More Heroes is fun. And enjoyable but its one of those games even I know you have to take the really bad to enjoy it. While the main action segments are fun, the game around it is hit or miss.

But that comment was directed at Aladuf who is so quick to post about Wii's shovelware, but hardly touches the notable games.

[Aladuf]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Hell by your definition TF 2 is a non-game as well.

At least I have a goal in TF 2 am I right?! booyah!

[Renwood]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I own and to some extent enjoy Brain Age, but the game itself has no real goals. If you get a Brain Age of 20 it isn't an end really. Just means you are sharp that day or know how to cheat the system well.

Brain Age does have a goal when I play it. I play it to achieve or to maintain the lowest possible age. That's the goal I give to myself within the framework of the game. It does not explicitly encourage me to that specific style of play, but it is set up to allow it. My mom plays Brain Age for specific portions, and rarely if ever tests her age day-to-day. She plays free form, and sets up her own goal of wanting to do math problems faster that day. The game isn't directing her. She's directing her.

So this becomes hazy when we look at other games with the same mentality. What is the long-term goal in Halo 3 multiplayer? If its ranking, then what happens when I've achieved the highest possible rank? Is my goal then not to maintain that? What if I wasn't playing for rank to begin with? My goal was to win each game I entered. That's my soft goal. But there's no hard limit on "winning"; each time is like the first time. There's no progression outside that ranking that I might or might not care about. I'm not forced into anything. I have set up my own goal again.

More generally, isn't my ever present goal with a game to enjoy myself? That's what I consider a game; something I do for derived enjoyment. Games give me that enjoyment in different ways. Some have fun mechanics, some make me think, and some are just aesthetically pleasing (or sometimes, displeasing like in Silent Hill), and I like being transplanted into the world they're pushing.

"Sort of like the Sims"; do you consider the Sims to be a non-game? Similar to Brain Age, there are arbitrary goals in place, but I rarely followed them. I liked to wall off the Sims and make my own goals for the day. Its similar with Grand Theft Auto. The story is there with its linear progression and set of developer-set goals, but I spend the bulk of my time on free play, where the only goal is to see what I can and cannot do within the game world. There is no goal or "reward" in that for me beyond "personal satisfaction"

Originally Posted by BreakABone

No More Heroes is fun. And enjoyable but its one of those games even I know you have to take the really bad to enjoy it. While the main action segments are fun, the game around it is hit or miss.

It's not good in the same way it is not bad. Its average and adequate, but not remarkable, and when its peers are, it becomes unnecessary. Until such time as it is the only game left unplayed from my library.

[DeathsHand]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I'm not gonna disagree with this statement, but how is playing a Nintendo console for Nintendo games any different than people who bought 360s for Halo 3 or people who buy Ps3 for MGS 4 and GTA IV?

The point of me saying that Nintendo fans buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games was simply to establish that, while they'd certainly welcome quality third-party titles, they're generally happy either way... But that this new casual pseudo/non-gamer that's responsible for an unknown (but probably fairly substantial) chunk of it's sales isn't necessarily buying the Wii for either of those.

But I suppose the main difference between buying Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games vs. 360/ps3 for GTAIV is that GTAIV is a third-party title...
I also really don't think it's fair to say that a console with a LOWER game-to-console attach rate is being purchased for Nintendo GAMES (plural), while the console with more robust game sales is being bought for a single title (GTAIV)...

If you look at the top-selling games on each console, GTAIV is just one of many 2+ million sellers from third parties that make up 360's list...

Xbox 360 sales:

2: CoD4
3: Gears of War
6: Assassin's Creed
7: Guitar Hero III
8: Oblivion
10: Madden 08
11: Ghost Recon
12: Rainbow Six Vegas
13: Guitar Hero II
14: CoD3
15: CoD2

And the trend continues with third-party games that sold between 1 and 2 million... Mass Effect, Saints Row, Bioshock, Fight Night, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Rock Band, Need for Speed games...

PS2's and the original Xbox's lists are similar to that...

Now compare that all to say...

N64
Gamecube
and Wii
*strokes chin*

That is the same feeling Aladuf shares.
And for some reason the creation of Wii Play and Game Party hasn't stopped stuff like Gears 2 or Prototype or hell even Mad World from being announced. Epic isn't all of sudden turning GoW 2 into Gears Party or Halo Play.

Of course not... I was moreso referring to future generations of consoles...
If Wii ultimately dominates the sales charts by these margins when all is said and done this generation, Sony and MS might want to look into ways to tap into this new market Nintendo created... And I'd be curious to see what they come up with, because they're certainly not going to succeed simply by adding a waggle to their next $600 powerhouse of a console...